Push or pull? Cutting dovetails

Re: Push or pull? Cutting dovetails *LINK*

HC Sakman @ Victoria, BC

>Try item A or the rip dozuki. Both are beyond anything I've used before. Especially the pro dozuki (cc teeth) is "a cut above", for sure.

Chico...


Pull with this

Re: Push or pull? Cutting dovetails

Derek Cohen (in Perth Australia)

>Hi Denis

I have a couple of dozukis, including the LV Rip you use. I also have the LN Independence dovetail saw, which Rob Cosman uses (although I doubt that his is "out of the box").

For the first time user, the dozuki is by far the easier saw to use. I found the LN required quite some time to get used to since it is harder to start (which can quite considerably affect the accuracy of your cut since the tight kerf means that you cannot steer the saws). I persevered with the LN (because it is better suited to hardwoods) and now I reach for it first.

In my opinion, what is required in a dovetail saw is the ability to track straight. If you have a saw that meets this requirement, then you have a good dovetail saw. Of course you have to be able to saw to a line, but this takes practice and more practice, not a better saw. If you have a saw that can cut to a line, then you cannot blame the tool.

That is not to say that you should not buy another dovetail saw. Heaven forbid! This is just a hobby and if you can afford to experiment, do it. You may just prefer the action, which will make sawing easier (just not necesarily more accurate).

Regards from Perth

Derek

Push

Adam Cherubini

>Denis,

It really depends on how you hold your work. The key to sawing accuately is seeing the cut. So the Japanese would hold the board horizontally, kneeling on the floor such that eyes are above the board where the line and the cut is, hands below. Is that how you do it? I'm guessing not.

So you should do it the way you work, the way your bench works etc. You stand when you work, you push your planes, you push your saws.

I disagree with Derek's statement (its symantic) and I'm guessing his approach as well. Saws don't track, craftsmen track. Any saw will work if you use decent technique. There's no starting problem as long as you don't start a saw cut flat across the end grain. Cosman doesn't do this either, even tho he says he does. If you look closely he knicks the far corner first. I thin this is crazy tho. Saw the near corner first, unless you can look around at the back side (I do this when i x-cut).

FWW recently picked Adria as their favorite DT saw, BTW. Congrats Eddie! Surprise surprise, they also liked the saw I've been using for years. The $15 Crown gent's saw. Do I like it? No. Was it ready to go off the rack? No. Was it $15? YES! (You just have to run a file across every tooth on the opposite side from the punch that cut the teeth. One light pass will do it. 4" extra slim)

Have fun in the class

Adam

Postmodern Woodworking

Jeff Schmidt

>It keeps coming back to the fact that the collective "we" have approached hand tool woodworking in a thoroughly post-modern fashion, ie it is an existential, mixing tools and techniques, salad bar, hold the pickles hold the lettuce, whatever works for you approach. I don't think things were viewed so subjectively in the promodern world of guilded trades. Perhaps it has a lot to do with it being primarily a "hobby".

Of course, the pomo will deconstructively respond. "That is just your opinion" :-)

Second the rip dozuki...

Jonathan Kaplan (OR)

>I haven't tried the pro dozuki (A in the link), but I love my 8.5" Izeamon rip dozuki. It cuts beautifuly, and is a joy to use... Of course, it does mean that I have only myself to blame for my mistakes!

jk

Re: Push or pull? Cutting dovetails

Wiley Horne--Glendora, CA

>Denis,

Coupla points. As a preliminary, I think (if practical for you) it is better to try a good saw of each type to make the Japanese vs. western decision. And use em for a while.

But here's the point I wanted to make. A familiar and true saying is 'let the hammer do the work', 'let the saw do the work', etc. Meaning, don't muscle the tool, relax and guide the tool to do what it wants to do. Adding muscle gets you and the tool out of control. With Japanese saws, this is particularly true, even if they have a spine on them. You can, up to a point, muscle a western backsaw. It ain't gonna flex. I'm sure this isn't the best technique, but it can be done. Now with the dozuki, you're pulling it into tension, so it's capable of tracking straight. But downward pressure will cause the thin blade to flex slightly, or to otherwise start looking for the path of least resistance. To use the Japanese saw successfully, you want to relax and let the saw fall through the work, applying only a little downward force. If the saw is sharp, it'll move quickly without downward pressure.

The other technique point is that you want your lower arm moving in the same plane. This will tend to happen if you hold the saw lightly--like holding a peach. If you get a handshake on it and a tight grip, it's pretty easy to start pulling it 'around the corner'. Light grip, and focus on keeping your sawing arm in line with the cut.

Wiley

Re: Push or pull? Cutting dovetails

ThomD

>When I demoed dovetailing I used to take along the Independence/tarant saw, a dozuki, a hacksaw, occasionally a bowsaw, It is all in the guy pushing the saw. Except:

- It has to be a saw that will cut cleanly with the first cut. This is partly a factor of fit, enough teeth for the thickness of the material, and a mater of how sharp and well cut the teeth are. This is critical because one usually transfers the pins to the tails, and if one blurs the top of the pins, short of trimming them back to fresh material, you will have lost your mold for the second piece.

- The cut has to be smooth enough for the use. So if it leaves alot of texture in woods that will show it, and not compress at all, it will not be clean enough for the work in questions.

- Both Adam a Derek have a point about tracking. It comes down to the fact that some saws are designed to have virtually no set, they need to be set on the line from the first stroke or so, and they really can't be steered much, and don't need to be. But if that kind of saw doesn't track, then it won't do a good job for you. The independence saw will steer a bit at least in shallower cuts, I'm not so sure if I was cutting dovetail in 2" stock...

- Adam makes a good point about the visibility of the line with Japanese tools, though most of the time the Japanese user is not going to be able to see from behind the cut, and this doesn't seem to disconcert them. I wouldn't want a Japanese saw that really tore up the wood so I couldn't see the line.

A good part of the literature of dovetailing has been obsessed about really fine kerf saws, and tightly fit chisels, for the last 25 years. There is a lot to be said about the ease of use of fat kerfs and loose fit chisels, why not give oneself some space? The kerf isn't a deliverable, it doesn't represent in the final piece.

I come down on the side of the Independence saw. I haven't used the ones since LN took over, but one still hears good things. Just seems the easiest saw to cut dovetails with, and I am mostly a saw puller rather than pusher, or maybe 50/50 these days. I have yet to see a single picture of a Japanese craftsman cutting a dovetailed drawer, or carcass, maybe they do it, but they don't seem obsessed about it the way we are. That is the one downside of Japanese tools they aren't designed for the work we do. That said my second favorite saw is a "Japanese" dovetail saw that LV used to sell for about 20 bucks, not sure it is in the catalogue any more. It just worked great, and I have a few expensive Japanese saws to compare it against.

I think the trick is to practice sawing some lines freehand until it feels natural. A lot of joint cutting and only joint cutting can cause one to develop a cramped cautious style of sawing. Even when cutting practice joints I feel the stress of getting the proper result. Just cut some square, parallel lines in the end of a board, no lines.

The attached is how I send out parcels. The result may be a little jumbled looking, but I find that eliminating the layout (but not transfer lines) and the square lines, frees up the sawing and ultimately makes one a better sawyer.

Re: Push

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>"I disagree with Derek's statement (its symantic) and I'm guessing his approach as well. Saws don't track, craftsmen track."

I question this statement. Cosman, in his DT video, shows the virtues of the LN DT saw, by making test cuts with both this saw and a "run-of-the-mill" DT saw of unknown origin. He shows how once the LN saw is started it will track itself by virtue of minimal set, whereas the other saw could be wiggled in its kerf. That one couldn't track itself, the craftsman needs to do it.

Of course Cosman sells the LN saw, no one would expect that he favor another brand, but I have no problem with that as long as his product is good. How did his saw rate in the review? I'm curious...

Many saws could probably be tuned to perform in the same league as the LN saw, but the LN works right out of the box. I'd rather cut wood than tuning saws...

Re: Push

ThomD

>The Indie won't cut the dovetails for you, as I'm sure you know. And I think a lot of other saws track as well as it does. You have to learn how to sorta let it float on down, just move it back and forth. Sawing to a line encourages the idea of stearing which creates a lot of problems. Of course it the saw gets offline yo have to steer it.

It is a lot like driving a car, the beginer looks just over the hood and makes constant corrections, but it takes very little practice to learn to look further out and pick a target more out there. If you tried to line the edge of the car up with the median lines, you would tend to dive into them. It's all about aiming, if you shoot or throw, or play golf, you know what I am talking about. In all those sports the increment better equipment plays is noticeable, but slight. Very basic stuff that fits works fine. You can cut nice dovetails with an eclipse hacksaw.

There is an aesthetic dimension though. SOme saws will do the job, but are a bit miserable to use. Others are a pleasure. On that front if you want the Indie or a Japanese one buy them, they should both give pleasure as far as looks and souped up performance are concerned.

You still have to learn to cut. But be of good cheer, dovetails are a beginer skill, anyone can do them, just takes practice. Heck they have been showing up in PM for a decade, one step above shop maintenance and sharpening. In fact, sharpening is harder. I've never mastered keeping the shop up...

Yeah both

Ron in Kokomo

>I think the western ( Mine is an Independence.....neeener neener) work better for a veteran, because of the stiffness of the blade. BUT I really believe that the dozuki is easier to learn on. It is more intuitive IMHO

Hmmm

Jim in Burlington On

>How can you see the line when it's to the right of the saw? I had alot of problems cutting to the line. Lynn gave me alot of help thinking thru the solutions to the problem with my poor eyesight. Watching Rob's video and having taken his course I still had problems. Extending the line of cut while practicing helps me get the angle down. I literally made a few hundred practice cuts then made several squares with dovetail's on all 4 corners in hardwood.

Rob Cosman did use a saw with less set and had Tom make some up with less set and sign them it's a small gloat but I have one. Moral of the story is I think you learn how to cut straight you don't figure it out as your cutting.

Re: Hmmm

ThomD

>As mentioned I draw as few lines as possible, and all I require to saw straight down where the line is, is to focus at the destination. I don't have to even see it. I can be looking at a point through the saw, but it better be the right point. This isn't some mystical garbage, but more like looking through the car ahead to get a longer sight line.

I look at three things.:

1) Alignment, don't get in your own way. Make sure you can have a free flowing stroke. Make sure that free flowing alignment is lined up with the line you actually want to cut. Big tip is: set up, close your eyes, now look again, are you still ligned up or were you only there because you had used your eyes to place your saw on the line.

2)Aiming. What are you actually looking at. If you are looking at where your saw tooth is in relation to the line your dwelling in the past, you are probably looking at the wrong place (starting it's OK), it's your call. My two references are the destination, and most often when I go bad, it feels like I'm binding. When that happens I will shift concentration so I am aiming the blade alignment at the top of the workpiece so it is perfectly parallel to the kerf. When I do that, it will usually stear itself down below. Pop quizz: what do you actually focus on to aim a blade for parallel alignment? Aiming isn't observation, it is a single point of concentration.

3) Flow. Call it what you like, but like walking you need to be just sawing, not thinking about sawing or watching yourself sawing, or enjoying how that new saw looks in the cut. In woodturning, you aim by looking at the blur of the developing shape on the top of the worpiece, and your hands just follow. No think, just do. To get the flow, since I don't do this stuff every day. If I'm out of practice I will start off just sawing some lines. Then once it feels good I go over to the workpiece. Practice swings, maybe a little stretching.

On eyesight, I am just hanging in there. A friend of mine who is a better shot than me, truth be told, was bugging me about my eyesight recently. I said that it's not how well you see, but what you do with what you see, so it's everything from your IQ, to reaction time, to how good an aimer you are, as well as the athletics. Let's say you are shooting a pistol, theory holds that you should be concentrating you visual energy on the front sight. Not the target, not the rear sight, not some point in the middle. So let's say you have great eyesight and you focus on the target, you are probably working on a miss. I have bad eyesight, but I am focused on the front sight, the target is going to be a blur anyway, I'm working up a hit. Best groundhog hunter I ever saw in action was a grizzled, 90% blind, black labrador my landlord used to have. She wouldn't have done more damage if she were human with a high powered rifle.

Postmodern?

will tracey

>Please do not use the term Postmodern if you are not going to use it correctly. The term is so often misunderstood and inappropriately applied that it should be left to critical theorists. Postmodernism is not about the kind mixing and matching you speak of, it has to do with a rejection of Modernism with a capitol M. The 1970's and 80's witnessed a historicist revolt against what had become a boring and sterile approach to much of architecture and design. The best Modern design had been copied badly and proliferated around the world.

Postmodernism is about fashion and style, and not about choosing what works best. It is not an easy term to define; "Postmodern" tends to refer to a criticism of the absolutism of 20th century theories. One must look to Modernism for insight, because Postmodernism is generally thought to have grown out of it, or in reaction to it. The ecclectic blending of various styles and approaches was meant to comment on the banality of Modernism. That it happened to be banal itself only bolstered the confusion of styles that were employed.

Choosing what works best has been known across many eras as practicality. Do not confuse this simple perspective with a daunting one such as Postmodernism. Get both saws and see what gives.

Push vs pull and where one starts the cut

Derek Cohen (in Perth Australia)

>"It really depends on how you hold your work. The key to sawing accuately is seeing the cut. So the Japanese would hold the board horizontally, kneeling on the floor such that eyes are above the board where the line and the cut is, hands below."

Good point Adam. As I was driving to work this morning, and stuck in the traffic but trying hard to avoid thinking of work, my mind wandered to the cutting of dovetails, and in particular what my ideal dovetail vise would look like. Now this was before reading the above and I was thinking that I should have said something (the same as you) about this. It comes down to "where do you begin your cut?".

My vise holds the boards vertically. When I use a japanese saw I tend to crouch down so that I can see the lines on both the top and the face edges, and cut them similtaneously beginning at the near side. I am cutting on a point at first, then increasingly on the flat.

When it comes to a Western saw, I stand upright, again I am trying to cut on the corner first, this time the far corner - and it is hard if not impossible to see the far side to align the two lines. Now this is where my speculation comes in... it would be interesting to try a dovetail vise for a Western saw that started out at a 45 degree angle (towards oneself), then pivoted upright as the kerf is established. Or I could just start the cut on the near side as I do with the Japanese saw. I have this memory (from a recent thread in which you posted pictures of your grip on Japanese and Western saws) of you doing just this. Is this so? Perhaps you might say something about these differences.

"I disagree with Derek's statement (its symantic) and I'm guessing his approach as well. Saws don't track, craftsmen track. Any saw will work if you use decent technique. There's no starting problem as long as you don't start a saw cut flat across the end grain."

Our differences are probably partly symantics but there may be a differing opinion as well. I was refering to the fact that the dovetail saws we all use have so little set that they create a very tight kerf. This guides the saw exactly as the saw set dictates - if there is too much set on one side, the saw with cut in that direction, and the user will not be able to steer it away and back to the desired saw line. So the accuracy of the start is important, which is partly user-skill and partly the ability of the saw to track in a straight line.

With regard the starting of the LN, the teeth are filed at an aggressive angle, and while this makes them cut deeply, the teeth will tend to catch at the start unless the saw is angled to reduce its attack. This is something one has to learn with the LN.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: Push or pull? Cutting dovetails

Dan Clermont in Burnaby

>Hi Denis,

Sometimes dovetails come down to practice, practice, practice and getting to know your saw.

I have tried dovetails with both Japanese Pulls and Western Pull saws. I tend to gravitate towards the Western saws for dovetails however I do like the pull saws for tenon cheeks as I don't own a decent fine crosscut saw.

Have fun during your course.

Dan CLermont

Re: Postmodern?

ThomD

>Good point. Though, post modern architecture has been such an ugly failure anything that would destroy the term's utility as conceit around which to fundraise for ugly trophy buildings, should be enbraced. Overuse it, underuse it, but by all means abuse it.

Re: Push vs pull and where one starts the cut

ThomD

>"My vise holds the boards vertically. When I use a japanese saw I tend to crouch down so that I can see the lines on both the top and the face edges, and cut them similtaneously beginning at the near side. I am cutting on a point at first, then increasingly on the flat."

Whatever works for you. As I mentioned, I have yet to see a dovetail cut japanese style. They do tend to work a line around rather than the slicing bread model that seems "western" In that mode they are not trying to see everything at once, and they are getting the sawdust eyes view of the line. May have soemthing to do with their laying out with black ink lines, I don't know. I have seen Daiku saw tenons while standing over the workpiece where the clear side is facing the floor, more often than not.

The master of the rough dovetail saw, Tage Frid, has this great picture in his joinery book of a pull saw that looks like it has been run over by an Abrams tank. He points out that these saws are overly fragile and that because they work on the pull stroke one can't see the line, and a myth was born...

Re: Postmodern?

Jeff Schmidt

>It is not an easy term to define

Which is inherent to its linguistic deconstructionist presuppositions. One can't define it, therefore it cannot be critiqued. Very convenient.

Re: Postmodern?

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Well, art critics are things to behold. :)

Pam

I'm a pusher...

Scott Burr in cold Ben Lomond,CA

>Always have been... always will be. Hey, the first ones free!

Scott still learning Japanese saws...

Eclectic Utilitarianism?

mike recchione

>Utilitarian Eclecticism? Dialectic Epicurianism? Material Darwinism? Multicultural Maximalism? You decide. I guess I'll just stick to my Post-consumerist Minimalism. It works for me. (I feel so much better now that I've got a label! :-) )

y'all sure do talk pretty

Adam Cherubini

>

Too much set

Michael Recchione

>Denis, I've been hearing statements like "I'd rather be woodworking than tuning [substitute appropriate tool here]" to justify spending a little extra money to buy tools that are ready to go right out of the box versus "kit" tools (new or old) for years here and on other forums. Many times that statement makes sense. But worrying about too much set in a saw is probably carrying that concept too far. It takes about 5 minutes to reduce the set of a saw. If 5 minutes of fairly trivial work can save me $100...

I like....

Jeff Schmidt

>Premodern