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A few workbench questions (long) - help needed

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A few workbench questions (long) - help needed

#1

A few workbench questions (long) - help needed

Derek

>There are a lot of experienced folks here and I'm looking for advise and ideas (brainstorming if you will).

I am a pretty experienced woodworker and have built some quality projects. I do not have a traditional woodworking bench. I have a workbench, with lots of storage, and use it along with my tablesaw for planing and other hand tool work. The workbench is definitely limiting for me. The top is double-layer MDF and is not quite flat. It is in a location where I can not fully utilize it.

I am thinking about how I can squeeze a woodworking bench into my shop. Increasing the shop space is not an option. Loosing much storage is not an option either.

I do a fair amount of hand-tool work as well as machine work (I must be bipolar...). I need to support both my addictions. I am not into "traditional" tools and methods but am into practical (whether traditional or not).

I have some questions for those of you who have limited shop space. My space is pretty limited and shared with family stuff.

1) How big of a bench do you feel you need to do reasonable cabinet work and furniture work? Is a 72" x 28" bench reasonable? Do you feel you really need bigger, say 84" x 30", or would an even smaller bench such as 60" x 28" work?

I have seen that most woodworking benches have lots of empty space under them. Storage is a huge problem for me. Currently, I only have a face vise but I'd like to re-position things in my shop so I can have a tail vise on the right side of the bench (left side is not possible unless I can come up with an alternate shop layout). My face vise extends into a cabinet under the bench and works fine (there is stuff around the vise inside the cabinet but it does not interfere with it).

2) How much of the space under your bench is empty and how much is storage?

3) Is there any reason that the storage could not extend to within a few inches of the outside edge of the top, as long as dog holes are provided, there is clearance for the vises and it is OK for chips and such to fall down there?

4) Do I really need a 2 1/4 - 2 1/2" thick top or would a 1 3/4" thick top do nicely?

5) Do I really need a traditional hardwood frame or could I use a heavily built plywood tortion box structure?

6) Any other considerations for me?

I'm thinking about a cabinet type frame (heavily built from 3/4" thick plywood and hardwood where abolutely needed) with a hardwood (probably maple) top.

Re: A few workbench questions (long) - help needed

#2

Steve Kubien

Re: A few workbench questions (long) - help needed

Steve Kubien

>Hi Derek,

I'm only going to offer my opinions on a couple of points...

3) Is there any reason that the storage could not extend to within a few inches of the outside edge of the top, as long as dog holes are provided, there is clearance for the vises and it is OK for chips and such to fall down there?

I would want enough room under the top to allow for the use of holdfasts. You may not use them now but if you give them a try, they will quickly become indispensible. As for how far forward (close to the front edge) the storage should be... I'd allow enough space to avoid banged you feet, knees, legs etc. Maybe set it back 3-4".

5) Do I really need a traditional hardwood frame or could I use a heavily built plywood tortion box structure?

As long is the whole structure does not rack and there is enough weight to hold it in one place (nobody likes having to chase their workbench), go with the plywood-torsion-box construction. Anything else is mainly cosmetic. Its gotta be solid and its be functional.

Personally, my bench is geared more towards handtools. The base is open with a shelf to gather offcuts, shooting boards, bench hooks, and bits and pieces I need to get at quickly while I am in the middle of something.

Others here will chime in and offer their experiences. Many of us are hybrid woodworkers, using power and hand tools.

Oh yeah, I would kill the idea of a traditional style tail vise. You can do a lot of things quickly with holdfasts and battens.

Hope this helps,

Steve Kubien

Re: A few workbench questions (long) - help needed

#3

Thanks!

Derek

>Thanks for the opinions and suggestions. They are definitely helpful. I use a bench hook and shooting board and battens but I've never used holdfasts. They certainly look handy - especially for mortices and trimming tenons.

Re: A few workbench questions (long) - help needed

#4

Re: A few workbench questions (long) - help needed

Hank Knight from SC

>Derek, you are going through what I went through for a long time before I finally bit the bullet and built my "ultimate" bench. Many on this board have gone through the same process, so I'm sure you'll get lots of responses and many good ideas. Benches are the subject of many strongly held opinions, many of which conflict with those of other bench builders, so just go with what feels right for you.

Here's my bench story:

My shop is 17' X 23'. I have enough stationary power tools to fill up a lot of the floor space. My bench was a 30" X 60" one originally built for a home machinist (my father). It was pushed against one wall. Every time I built anything larger than a shoebox, I found myself putting a large solid core door on two saw horses in the middle of the shop floor and doing most of my work and assembly on it. The ability to work from all sides of the project combined with the extra size of the saw horse "bench" top was seductive. The machinist's bench had no bench dogs and a mediocre woodworking vise I installed after I took the machinist's vise off, and it took up too much room since I was doing most of the work on the sawhorse contraption.

After struggling with this for a long time, I finally caved in and decided to build a proper bench. I did what you are doing: I investigated, read everything I could find and collected ideas, some of which were my own. I ended up with a 32" X 78" bench with an oak base that includes a drawer case for hand tools and bench accessories. I left a 7" space between the top of the drawer carcase and the bottom of the bench top to allow for holdfasts (Actually the space is 10" from the top of the bench - the top is 3" thick in the middle and 4" thick along the edges).

This probably answers some of your questions, but I'll take each question in order and give you my thoughts:

1) How big of a bench do you feel you need to do reasonable cabinet work and furniture work? Is a 72" x 28" bench reasonable? Do you feel you really need bigger, say 84" x 30", or would an even smaller bench such as 60" x 28" work?

My original 60" bench was not wide enough. My 78" bench is all I can reasonably fit in my shop. I have no room for an assembly table, so I built my bench wide enough to act as an assembly table. At 32" X 78" it works fine - especially since I can work all around the bench. I think a narrower bench might be better if you are limited to locating it againsdt a wall; you need to be able to reach across it. My bench gives me ample work space and clamping capability. I would like to have a larger top, but I have no more room. I wouldn't consider anything smaller.

I have seen that most woodworking benches have lots of empty space under them. Storage is a huge problem for me. Currently, I only have a face vise but I'd like to re-position things in my shop so I can have a tail vise on the right side of the bench (left side is not possible unless I can come up with an alternate shop layout). My face vise extends into a cabinet under the bench and works fine (there is stuff around the vise inside the cabinet but it does not interfere with it).

Storage has always been an issue in my shop. As I mentioned, I built a case of drawers under my bench top. I gave up some drawer space in order to leave room for holdfast shafts, but it was an easy trade off. I still have a lot of drawer space under my bench. If you're going to build a real bench, put real vises on it. I never appreciated how useful a proper end vise was until I installed one on my bench. I don't know how I lived without one all those years. I wanted a traditioinal end vise, but I couldn't figure out how to accommodate the large overhang in my limited space and still get adequate storage built into the base. I solved the problem with the Veritas twin screw vise and I've been very happy with it. It performs all the functions of a traditional end vise and more, and it doesn't require the big overhang you need with a traditional end vise. Which side of the bench you put the tail vise and face vises on is depends on whether you're left handed or right handed. Left handers need the end vise on the left side and right handers on the right side. The face (or shoulder) vise goes on the opposite end.

2) How much of the space under your bench is empty and how much is storage?

In addition to the 7" space under my top for holdfasts, I raised the bottom rail about 5" off the floor so I could sweep under the bench and retrieve all those little items I drop that invariably roll under the bench. This left about 13" for a drawer case. I have two bancs of drawers: 4 on the left side and 3 on the right. The drawers in the left banc are wider and shallower than the right banc. I use them for chisels, saws and similar things that fit in shallow drawers. The right banc gets small planes, lay out tools carver's mallets and bench gear (holdfasts, bench dogs and such stuff). I could have run the bottom strecher along the floor and picked up some storage space, but I like being able to clean under the bench and I'm satisfied witht he trade-off.

3) Is there any reason that the storage could not extend to within a few inches of the outside edge of the top, as long as dog holes are provided, there is clearance for the vises and it is OK for chips and such to fall down there?

No. My drawer carcase is as deep as I could make it. It extends to within 4" of the edge of the bench top. The 4" overhang leaves room bench dogs and allows me to clamp work to the bench top if I choose. My face vise is mounted outboard of the base on the left side (I'm right handed), so it doesn't interfere with the drawer case.

4) Do I really need a 2 1/4 - 2 1/2" thick top or would a 1 3/4" thick top do nicely?

You will probably get a lot of different opinions about this. My idea was the heavier the top the better, so I built mine with a 3" thick laminated maple "field" with 4" thick dog hole strips and apron. It's very heavy and solid as a rock. I think you could certainly get by with something less; I've seen nice benches on this board and others made with 1 3/4" stock for the top. I might suggest, however, that you consider using thicker stock along the edges - or along the front edge at least. Most of the pounding and abuse you'll give your bench will occur on the front 4" to 6" of the top. If you use thick hardwood stock in this area, it will stiffen the top and give you a solid edge to pound on.

5) Do I really need a traditional hardwood frame or could I use a heavily built plywood tortion box structure?

I think this is purely a personal preference. I'm sure a well designed plywood base could provide the necessary suport for a good workbench. I think the top is the most important consideration. As long as your base will provide a solid support for the top and resist wracking and slipping and sliding around the shop, you could build it out of most anything.

6) Any other considerations for me?

Yes, but I've been going too long already. You will have more questions as you get further into this project. Post them and you will get good responses here.

Here is a picture of my bench:


img

Re: A few workbench questions (long) - help needed

#5

Re: A few workbench suggestions

Barryvabeach

>Derek, I know everyone has their own preferences and there is no right answer . My bench is 20 " x 63" and sits 8 inches from a wall. I found it is plenty big enough for everything I need, when I need to plane a longer peiece, I use a sticking board, or when I need to true a long edge, I use a board jack. If you will be able to work from both sides of the bench, you can make it wider, but since mine is basically up against a wall I can't plane any farther away than my hands will reach ( even if I had a 30" wide bench, I can't plane anything on the far side, I would still have to plane one half, then turn the peice around.) I also have a larger - say 30 x 45 assembly table which is a simple 3/4 ply top gate leg table that I set up so I can get on all sides of it. As to thickness, IMO, you need it to be strong enough so it won't deflect when planing 1 3/4 should work. When you mortise, keep it right over a leg so thickness of the top isn't an issue. As to storage, you normally want to stay a few inches inside of the bench top in case you want to clamp something to the top. Also, you need to stop a few inches below the top so that you can clean out the shavings that fall through the dog holes. Other than that - storage can really help keep the bench stable. Good luck. Barry

Re: A few workbench questions (long) - help needed

#6

Re: A few workbench questions (long) - help needed *LINK*

Pete Ducklow

>Hi Derek -

As you do your research, you will find that a lot of people like using a softwood like southern yellow pine, or douglas fir for their bench. The reasoning is that you don't have to worry about the bench harming your workpiece. It's better for the bench to take the abuse rather than nice curly maple chair. Also they are easier to flatten. A lot of people have used just regular old construction grade lumber for both the base and the top.

I am planning on starting a bench with douglas fir that I can get at the local borg. It will be about 24-27" deep by 72" wide. The top will be about 2.75" thick, laminated so that edge grain is on the top.

I am kind of basing it on Christopher Schwarz's Roubo bench (see link)


http://woodcentral.com.ldh0138.uslec.net/cgi-bin/archives_handtools.pl?noframes;read=68723

Re: A few workbench questions (long) - help needed

#7

Re: A few workbench questions (long) - help needed

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Another reason for choosing a soft wood is to avoid having a very slippery bench.

Pam

Re: A few workbench questions (long) - help needed

#8

Re: A few workbench questions (long) - help needed

ThomD

>I wouldn't be without my tail vise. It does a lot more than hold panels.

Re: A few workbench questions (long) - help needed

#9

Define "limited"

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

>My shop, at 11 feet square, isn't the smallest one that Wood-Centralians have used (I think Ed Snow's old shop may be the smallest), but it's sure not big.

My bench is two feet by five feet, all I could fit in the space, and located so long wood can theoretically pass out the door - although the space is tight enough that I can't plane anything that long anyhow. Anything long or made of plywood winds up out in the driveway on sawhorses.

Because the space is small, the bench is bolted to a 2x4 ledger lagged to the wall, which provides plentiful firmness. The base consists of a plywood box divided into bays, with adjustable shelves on pins to hold tools. The box is about 4-6" back from the front of the top, to provide toe room and room for the line of dogholes that center on the small Record vise that serves as a tailvise.

It's not really adequate, but then, the whole shop's not really adequate. It's been a great improvement over what I found when we moved in.

Re: A few workbench questions (long) - help needed

#10

Re: A few workbench questions (long) - help needed

Frank D. in Montreal

>Hi Derek,

here are a few ideas, I thought I'd chip in but don't think I'm some kind of expert.

My shop is quite small, 10 1/2' by 14', and to make things worse I have 2 solid walls of windows and two doors, which takes away a lot of wall and floor space. I also have a cabinet saw with 7' rails, a bandsaw, a drill press, a grinding station, too much wood, and too many other tools. So I definitely store stuff under my bench (no drawers, just a bottom shelf and some smaller shelf units sitting on it), the heavier the better (planes, SCMS which I don't use often but keep for carpentry, sandpaper, horizontal mortiser for my router, sharpening equipment, shooting board and bench hook). I still have enough clearance for my holdfasts to stick through the top. Things do pick up a little dust but that's a small price to pay for all the storage.

I have no vises. I don't really find a need for them with my two holdfasts. My bench has an apron so I can use the holdfasts on the front, with a big piece of oak, like a big vise. I also have holes in the legs for the holdfasts to hold stuff vertically. Vises would eat up a lot of my available floor space.

My bench is 66" long, a little short but I won't rebuild for the 4 or 6 extra inches I could gain (I have a door at each end of my bench, so length is limited). I'm still happy with it, but I admit that I haven't made anything really huge. When I plane long boards I have a straight 2x10, 8' long, that I can place on my bench to plane on.

I agree with Pam about softwood; I find hardwood bench tops a little too slippery for me. I had thought about building a "dream bench" until I realized how much I like the one I have. It has a 2x4 and 2x6 frame (with most of the 2x4s doubled up, so like 4x4s) and two layers of 3/4" unfinished ply for the top. It's very sturdy and doesn't move or rack at all. I can post pics if you want.

Re: A few workbench questions (long) - help needed

#11

Re: A few workbench questions (long) - help needed

ThomD

>"1) How big of a bench do you feel you need to do reasonable cabinet work and furniture work? Is a 72" x 28" bench reasonable? Do you feel you really need bigger, say 84" x 30", or would an even smaller bench such as 60" x 28" work?"

It is like anything else in the shop you could always do with a bigger one. I like length more than width. My current bench is like 20-24 inches wide, and it is pretty hard to reach tool on the wall. I would like 18", by as long as possible. My current bench is 8'ish. My other bench is 5 foot, and for me that was way too short. My basic concept is it needs to be:

a)big enough to take the longest piece you will work, so that is limited by ceiling height for me

b)It's nice it the part to the side of the front vise is as long as you will regularly use, cause the vise is in the way.

c) id you are using vises and dogs then they don't always hols all the way to the end. It is like lathes, it's 60inches long, but turns out you can get a 36" piece in there, and those are comon.

"2) How much of the space under your bench is empty and how much is storage?"

Most of mine is wasted. Often one can't get at that stuff anyway, since the boards one is working on block it. I do have a storage shelf, but I find it hard to use stuff. You can certianly store stuff down there if you like. Unless your bench is solid it tends to shake the heck out of stuff down there.

"3) Is there any reason that the storage could not extend to within a few inches of the outside edge of the top, as long as dog holes are provided, there is clearance for the vises and it is OK for chips and such to fall down there?"

you probably need more than a few inches, usually the front is like a 4" beam, but it can be less, and the dogs are on the edge of that. Also the dogs stick down making getitn into drawers a problem. YOu can certianly figure something out.

"4) Do I really need a 2 1/4 - 2 1/2" thick top or would a 1 3/4" thick top do nicely?"

Thicker is better, but you can either frame the thinner top inside some timber edges like most euro tops, or make doe with 1.75, which isn't skimpy or anything.

5) Do I really need a traditional hardwood frame or could I use a heavily built plywood tortion box structure?

Any stiff frame is goos, it can be nailed together or a timber frame. It is hard to make a really good torsion box that is cut to heack with storage, and have it be as stiff as can be, but it can be done. I don't know if you weld, but there are some great opportunities to do it with steel.

6) Any other considerations for me?

I'm thinking about a cabinet type frame (heavily built from 3/4" thick plywood and hardwood where abolutely needed) with a hardwood (probably maple) top.

The workshop book had several like that, basically kitchen cabinet island type construction with a top on them.. Check it out.

I am working on one shop expanding deal. I am planing on building a outdoors bench. One that will work fabulous, probably be a little simplyfied in the vise department, but totaly weatherproof, so I can leave it out of doors. I like working outdoors, and I have a lot more space out there.

Re: A few workbench questions (long) - help needed

#12

I would love to see pics

Michael Recchione

>We often see pictures of "dream benches", and they're beautiful, no question about it. But I would love to see more pictures of benches and shops like yours, where the bench represents a utilitarian adaptation to a particular situation (lack of space, doors & windows, etc.) I also like to see examples that demonstrate that you don't need to have one of the eye-candy benches from the Landis book in order to do good handtool woodworking.

My whole shop layout is an adaptation like that - I live in a flood zone, and the way that I got space for a shop was that we had to get rid of everything in our basement after a hurricane a number of years ago. The very real possibility that my shop will take on 4' of water has forced me to come up with different ways to approach tool storage (high up or easily grabbable), and has also driven me away from heavy, eye-candy things like traditional tool chests or Shaker benches. For example, I've found the space between the floor joists above me to be a great place to store tools. Things that are low to the ground need to be quickly removable or expendable (including my bench).

BTW - to someone who spends more than half the year doing his woodworking in a basement with low ceilings and essentially no natural light at all, having two walls of windows in a shop doesn't exactly sound like a problem! :-)

Re: A few workbench questions (long) - help needed

#13

Re: "BTW" - I Agree!

Hank Knight from SC

>

Re: A few workbench questions (long) - help needed

#14

Shop 1

Frank D. in Montreal

>You're right about the windows Michael,

I love them, and the light they let in virtually eliminates rust problems. I don't have much time so I'll just shoot a few pics. Here's one of my shop. It's a vernada that used to have a dividing wall. I cut out the bottom half of the wall, but kept the top half for storage. I have to duck under it but I couldn't lose all that storage space. Behind the waal you can see a small aprt of my wood storage. Everything is up high.


img

Re: A few workbench questions (long) - help needed

#15

Re: I would love to see pics

Frank D. in Montreal

>Here's one of the window walls.


img

Re: A few workbench questions (long) - help needed

#16

Bench

Frank D. in Montreal

>This was taken a while ago. I have since added another 2x4 to the legs of the bench, so the legs come out flush with the apron. I also drilled holes in the legs for holdfasts.

Re: A few workbench questions (long) - help needed

#18

Re: Oops Here's the pic 

Frank D. in Montreal

>


img

Re: A few workbench questions (long) - help needed

#19

Bench plan

Frank D. in Montreal

>Here's the plan I started out with. I didn't attach the plywood to the back (I left it open), and no hardwood on top.


img

Re: A few workbench questions (long) - help needed

#20

Thanks, Frank

Michael Recchione

>Wow, that's a lot of stuff in a little space! I love the windows and the ingenious use of space. I'll try to get some pics this weekend and post them. Maybe we need a "sub-optimal spaces optimized for woodworking" thread or something. I'd love to see the way other folks have dealt with their challenges.

Re: A few workbench questions (long) - help needed

#21

Looks similar to my curent one

Derek

>except that I enclosed the base with utility plywood and added dividers, drawers, doors and shelves. My top is not plywood, but laminated MDF. I made is around 12-15 years ago (can't really remember exactly...). Also I don't have a bottom shelf.

Your bench is definitely more "woodworking-ish" than mine though.

Mine is definitely not a work of art but it has been useful. The storage is pretty fully packed though.

Thanks for the time you spend sharing your ideas and work. I really need to spend more time thinking about the ideas you and others are sharing. I don't want to start on this until I am comfortable that I have a good plan and I'm not there yet - my mind is pretty open right now.

Re: A few workbench questions (long) - help needed

#22

Re: Thanks, Frank

Norman (Metcalfe, Ont.)

>Frank,

As mentioned, very efficient use of space. I noticed the ivory-handled chisels, have you have a chance to test them much yet ?

Norman

Re: A few workbench questions (long) - help needed

#23

You got me beat!

Derek

>My space is a good bit bigger than yours. It is still pretty limited - I have not measured it - it is not rectangular. I need to preserve my limited open space and storage though.

I've had people tell me they were surprised I could build what I have built (like a whole kitchen) in the space I have.

Re: A few workbench questions (long) - help needed

#24

Re: Thanks, Frank

Frank D. in Montreal

>Yes, a little Norman. So far so good, but I'm still on my first sharpening. After 3 or 4 sharpenings I'll know for sure.

Frank

Re: A few workbench questions (long) - help needed

#25

Thanks to everyone!

Derek

>You gave me more to think about. I appreciate the time you spent with all the responses. I have to consider this more carefully. I won't make any decisions until I am comfortable that I understand the tradeoffs. Perhaps I'll see if I can find the Workbench Book.

Any more thoughts are welcome.

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