installing drawer runner options, question

Re: installing drawer runner options, question

Ed Mulligan, Cape Cod

>Bill -

A M & T is much stronger than a half lap and will retain mechanical strength even if the glue joint fails.

When drawer runners are dadoed into the side of a case they are less likely to deform and cause problems with drawer operation.

Ed

Re: installing drawer runner options, question

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>There are some disadvantages to using a half lap. As the piece ages, dust and crud can work its way under into the lap joint, lifting it, and causing it to wear more quickly. Also, when moving the piece, the runner can come loose, causing the drawers to jam when you try to reinstall them.

Note: never glue the rear M&T of the runner. It needs to slide to react to wood movement in the case sides. Replacing it when worn is not a problem either. You are going to have to remove the back to do the repair, and from there it is very easy to remove the back rail of the drawer divider.

There are also disadvantages to putting the runners or dust frame in dados. These can bind to the sides, causing the sides to split during the dry season. For this reason, and to facilitate eventual repair, I usually install runners and kickers with with a couple small dabs of glue, more at the front than at the back, about three finish nails, which will bend under stresses, instead of either cracking the sides or releasing unexpectedly.

If you study the 18th Century case pieces in the museums, you will find that almost all of them have suffered from cracked sides at one time or another during their lives. Every drawer support design is a compromise, and in the end, you can't win.

Re: installing drawer runner options, question

Sgian Dubh

>Bill, the suggestion to put the runners/kickers in a shallow housing (dado) perhaps relates mostly to drawers that are deep front to back and intended to carry heavy weight. As the drawer is opened and tries to tilt downwards at the front and up at the back and the housed kicker helps resist the tendency for it to bow upwards.

As to joinery of the runners/kickers one option is to create a shallow groove in the middle on the back back edge of the front divider and a corresponding tongue on the front end of the runner/kicker-- this might be a continuous groove if there are dust panels in the structure. This reduces the amount of excavating done on the back of the front drawer divider to create a mortise which in all likelihood is very close to whatever joinery holds the divider to the cabinet side-- this might be a double stub tenon to maximise long grain gluing area. A significant mortise just half an inch or less from these tenons would tend to weaken the rail, perhaps unnacceptably.

At the back the runner/kicker one option to consider is to join the rear divider with a dowel or two assembled with a suitable gap between the end of the runner/kicker and the rear rail to allow for carcase side expansion and contraction (in solid wood.) This way the dowels can go into shallow holes on the front edge of the rear rail and are glued in, and into fairly long holes in the end of the runner/kicker.

Certainly there are numerous ways of creating the runner/kicker and dustboard arrangement, but the above are a couple of possibilities to consider. Slainte.

Re: installing drawer runner options, question *LINK*

Andrew F in Australia

>Hi Bill,

As always, Richard is correct - I think that it was Crackerjack who was asking a similar question in the last week or two.

I'll link to his question and responses as well.

Cheers,

Andrew

(who uses a 1/4" deep groove on the rear edge of teh drawer blade and a tongue on the end grain of the drawer runner for this purpose, and usually uses a single dovetail on the other end, or ties it to the inside face of the rear apron rail with dowels or a loose tongue, depending upon wood orientation of the carcase sides and the need to allow for movement)


http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/handtools.pl?read=82973

thanks all....

bill tindall

>

edit for future ref: single LAP dovetail

Andrew F in Australia

>

Re: installing drawer runner options, question

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Richard, try as I might, I can't make heads or tails of what you (and Andrew via agreement) are saying. Most likely this is one of those "people separated by a common language" thing, but that doesn't really help.

As to joinery of the runners/kickers one option is to create a shallow groove in the middle on the back back edge of the front divider and a corresponding tongue on the front end of the runner/kicker-- this might be a continuous groove if there are dust panels in the structure. This reduces the amount of excavating done on the back of the front drawer divider to create a mortise which in all likelihood is very close to whatever joinery holds the divider to the cabinet side-- this might be a double stub tenon to maximise long grain gluing area. A significant mortise just half an inch or less from these tenons would tend to weaken the rail, perhaps unnacceptably.

Where is this shallow groove? Are you talking about the back of the divider's front rail? If so, I normally make a rail length groove to accept the front of the divider's panel. Or are you talking about some sort of middle stile? In which case, that is also normal, grooved on both sides for support of the middle edges of the divider's panel. And for the double stub tenon, do you mean on both ends of the divider's rails for insertion into mortises in the sides? And is the threat to these tenons a threat from some M&T between stile (tenon) and rail?

At the back the runner/kicker one option to consider is to join the rear divider with a dowel or two assembled with a suitable gap between the end of the runner/kicker and the rear rail to allow for carcase side expansion and contraction (in solid wood.) This way the dowels can go into shallow holes on the front edge of the rear rail and are glued in, and into fairly long holes in the end of the runner/kicker.

What is a "rear divider?" And the rest of this paragraph I don't understand at all.

Pam

I'll try and answer in the 2" before I go to work, *LINK*

Andrew F in Australia

>Hi Pam,

Q: Where is this shallow groove?

A: The drawer blade is the piece of wood that is underneath the drawer and forms part of the front of the carcase. As you can imagine, it's set flat side up (say 60mm x 19 is a common size). The groove is located in the 19mm edge that isn't the show face. (ie: furthest from the front of the carcase)

Q: Or are you talking about some sort of middle stile?

A: The middle stile you could be referring to is the division between drawers that are side by side (and runs vertically - at least, that's what stiles do by definition)

This is usually/traditionally held in place with a double stub tenon (usually a wedged through tenon.) No need to run a groove into the bestie.

Q: And for the double stub tenon, do you mean on both ends of the divider's rails for insertion into mortises in the sides?

A: talking the drawer runner, that runs under the drawer from the rear side of the drawer blade to the rear rail of the carcase. Where the drawer blade and the rear framing rail (referred to by Richard as the division) meets the leg/side of the carcase, it's got joinery already. At the same time, you've got to attach the drawer runner to both the rear of the drawer blade (shallow tongue and groove) and the rear framing rail (with the double stub tenon)

Q: And is the threat to these tenons a threat from some M&T between stile (tenon) and rail?

A: too many holes in too little space - it's a three way joint, essentially.

Q: What is a "rear divider?"

A: This was answered above (I hope it made sense)

Q: And the rest of this paragraph I don't understand at all.

A: Requires knowledge of traditional joinery terms relating to drawers. My 2" is up (long ago) but I'll spend a second on Google - if there's no link I couldn't find one easily (the Jeff greef site as one of the first links looked as though he had terminology OK)

Cheers,

Andrew


http://www.google.com.au/search?q=drawer+blade+rail+runner+kicker&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official

Re: installing drawer runner options, question

Sgian Dubh

>Pam, I typed hurriedly, didn't proof read, and I see some errors crept in that certainly wouldn't have helped with comprehension.

I'm going to try and load an image that should answer your questions. If the image doesn't load I'll email a copy of it to the email address you have posted next to your name. Slainte.

Addendum

Sgian Dubh

>Pam, I should add that the previously posted sketch does not show the definitive way of doing this type of carcass construction with horizontal frames to carry the drawers. The drawing is just a typical configuration. I can think of plenty of other workable layouts.

The dowels at the back are glued into the rear rail but left free in overly deep holes in the runner/kicker-- this allows for carcass expansion and contraction. At assembly there is a small gap left between the inside edge of the rear dividing rail and the runner/kicker. Other joinery can be substituted here such as a slip tenon.

At the front of the runner/kicker there is only a small tongue-- not much long grain for the glue to work on, but it's suprising in my experience how well these rather minimalist joints seem to hold together over the decades.

I've seen all sorts of tricks here in this front corner of the horizontal frame. I've seen inside corner wedges to reinforce the joint (usually where there is no dust panel, but not exclusively.) I've also seen a nail or screw driven through the inside edge of the runner/kicker and into the carcass side near the front. This trick always seems a bit iffy to me as it makes it harder to get the runners out for replacement some decades later.

Anyway, that should do it for now. Slainte.

Here's the sketch 

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

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Re: I'll try and answer in the 2" before I go to w

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Thanks, Andrew, what you guys are calling runner/kicker is what I was calling the stile, its dominant function being the stile in the dust panel. Now that I can see it, the front divider is done just as I have done before, same with the rear divider except for the dowels. Normally I just make another M&T, tenon in the runner. I haven't had any splits or separation so far, but I certainly don't have your and Richard's level of experience. The dowels should work fine, although I'd think my M&T produces a rack free dust panel.

What I was calling a middle stile would be a middle runner in the dust panel in the case of two drawers side by side.

It appears that the runner is what's recessed in the dado. True? So the runner must extend beyond the shoulders of the dividers? If so, all the more reason to have a tiny tenon in that runner. Then the runner can expand to its heart's content with no problem. Good design.

Pam

Re: I'll try and answer in the 2" before I go to w

Sgian Dubh

>It sounds like you've got what I was originally trying to convey Pam. Yes the runner does fit in the dado (aka, housing) so it's slightly offset from the shoulder line of the front and rear divider (by the depth of the housing.)

The double stub tenons at the ends of the front and rear divider are meant to hold the carcass together, but other joints are used too, like a sliding dovetail, and even KD fittings are used. It all depends on the purpose of the cabinet, the style, materials used, the intended lifespan, etc.. Slainte.

Thanks, Richard.

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

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