Japanese Lie nielsen

Re: Japanese Lie nielsen

Dan Clermont in Burnaby

>Hi Chris,

If it were me I would sell it and get a proper pull saw. The LN saw on EBay will probably sell for close to what you paid for it.

Don't know where you would find someone to re file the teeth but do wish you luck

Dan Clermont

Re: Japanese Lie nielsen

Chris Hedges

>might come ot that but am interested in the idea of combining western style back saw with the cutting characteristics of japanese crosscut saw

Re: Japanese Lie nielsen--Two contacts

Wiley Horne--Glendora, CA

>Chris,

One person who is capable of doing what you want is Mark Grable, now living in Vermont. Here is his contact info:

Mark Grable

607 Highland Rd.

Springfield, VT

05156

802-885-3376

Mark studied with the Japanese sawmaker Yataiki, and the Japanese saws he sharpens often come back to you in better than original factory fettle. He also sharpens western saws, and I had two western backsaws done recently by him, and they came back very sharp. I don't know what his opinion would be on putting Japanese teeth on a western saw. But you could ask.

You might also consult with Dave Burnard, whose email can be found by a search of the archives at this site. He is completely knowledgeable and capable in all matters regarding Japanese saws, including (as I understand it) forging them. He might give you the same advice as Dan Clermont, but if you're determined, he's a good guy to ask.

Wiley

Tooth shape

Steve Kubien

>Before I start let me state that I have very little knowledge about steel (ok, almost none). If you were to do this I would be concerned about the shape of Japanese teeth being too weak for the rigors of western sawing. If you've got the slightest tendenacy to bear down on the saw, I would worry about breaking off those thin little teeth.

Again, don't know if this has any validity. If you are serious about this, I would go with Dan's suggestion and sell it on eBay (or something similar). You'll get most of your money back.

Regards,

Steve Kubien

Re: Japanese Lie nielsen--Two contacts

Chris Hedges

>Thanks. Curious about the phone number - Is this a business number or home? I dont want to call someone out of the blue and/or at a bad time.

Re: Japanese Lie nielsen

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I tested an LN straight handled dovetail saw along side my dozuki (Professional from LV) in a class a couple of years ago. Both were perfect, fast, simple zip-zip and done, straight tracking. I've since moved on to a hand made rip dozuki, but why not sell your LN on ebay where you get close to new prices and buy their little straight handled number.

Pam

Don't do it.

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>Hi Chris

My advise to you is to be patient and persevere with the LN.

I went through a similar experience to yourself in that the push of the LN felt awkward to manage (compared to the pull of the dozuki) and hard to start (compared to other Western dovetail saws I own). For about a year, perhaps year-and-a-half, I would pick it up, give it a whirl, then go back to either a Z-saw dozuki (always my choice for fine, must-not-fail cuts) or a easier-to-use backsaw. Gradually I found the LN easier and more reliable. Now I reach for it first.

What changed was basically two things (my interpretation). Firstly, I changed the angle of attack at which I held the saw. Tilting it upward made it less aggressive. Secondly, as the teeth became a little more worn, they no longer caught on the wood fibres.

All the above aside, I do not advise refiling the LN teeth to dozuki style - even if it were physically possible. This is simply because of ergonomics. I find that cutting on the pull is facilitated by a straight handle, such as the Japanese style or Gent saw style (of course, these comments are not applicable if this is the saw you own). Similarly, it is easier to push a Western saw with a vertical grip, which adds more forward power. Horses for courses.

If you really don't like the LN, then sell it on eBay. It is simpliy amzing that the resell value they command there.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Answer and a coupla more thoughts

Wiley Horne--Glendora, CA

>Chris,

That is a home number for Mark Grable. Any reasonable hour should be OK.

I re-read your first post and have a couple of questions. The LN dovetail saw you own is 15-tooth, rip filed, right? And you want it converted to a crosscut with Japanese teeth? Which would be on the order of 25tpi, maybe more.

Am pretty sure this saw conversion would begin with grinding off all the existing teeth, and starting over--recut teeth, set, joint, sharpen. I think the same would be true, even if you wanted a rip-to-rip conversion, because the Japanese rip dozukis I'm most familiar with (Miyano, Mitsukawa) have a more aggressive rake than the western rip backsaw I own (an old C. E. Jennings), and definitely less set than the LN.

The saw meisters can tell you whether a Japanese type tooth setup (tpi, set, rake) will even work on a heavier blade. But you should know going in that you're talking about having someone make you a new saw, probably for more money than you've got in the LN saw.

I appreciate that you have an intellectual interest in the conversion. But the advice of selling the LN and starting over is very good.

Wiley

Perhaps another question is in order...

Chris Hedges

>is there a pre-existing western saw capable of cutting like a japanese crosscut saw. Think I remember reading an ad for a saw claiming is was filed, etc in a manner more suitable for handling cross grain cuts...Adria maybe? Most western dovetail saws claim that that they are ideally suited for dovetails because dovetailing is 'essentially' a ripping operation. Well, I suppose it is also 'essentially' a crosscut application as well.

or are we talking apples to oranges here? 

Chris Hedges

>

Re: Perhaps another question is in order...

elmariachi

>Interestingly hand saws used in Nepal are Western style in form, but teeth are filed for pull operation.

Re: Japanese Lie nielsen

ThomD

>There are lots of saws like that already. Lee Valley was selling a rocking one for about 10 bucks. I kick myself every time I pick it up that I didn't buy several.

I learned both ways, mostly Japanese first, but I find this Japanese X-cut is very complementary with the LV when Cutting dovetails I use it for the tail waste. It's great for seminars if you don't want to confuse people with totaly unavailable tools. I like to take stuff to seminars that I feel the folks there wouldn't stoop to use, so the message is clear.

This saw was not very pretty with a cheap red platic handle, but it works great. Every store I go into these days has western saws with Japanese teeth. Usually they suck because the handle angle is raised up so that if the teeth are filed for softwood, they are even more agressive with the handle behind. Whoever did the tool LV was blowing out got the angle right, and the saw starts very easily.

Re: crosscut

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>I don't see any way that cutting dovetails is a cross cut operation. Whenever I cut dovetails, I am always starting at the end of a board and cutting down the length of the board. I am never starting at the edge of a board and cutting across to the other side of the board. You can use a saw filed crosscut to cut dovetails, it simply is not as efficient. You can file a saw especially for cutting small delicate dovetails by putting a higher rake angle on the teeth, say 8 degrees or so, and also file some fleam into it. This would still technically be a rip saw, but would cut more like a crosscut saw, would cut slower but smoother. I kind of doubt you would be gaining anything by turning a western saw into a japanese style pull saw; the handle on a western saw is really meant to apply pressure while pushing, and the thickness of the steel would make it really a different saw than the japanese saw. It would be interesting to try it; if you do, please report back on your experiment.

Garrett Wade...

Joe Rogers, Northern Virginia

>Used to sell a saw set up just like you describe. Several catalogues later they were on the clearance pages. I don't know if they were dogs because of execution or poor performance. At least when they were selling them they didn't have much of a market.JR

Re: Japanese Lie nielsen

paul womack

>might come ot that but am interested in the idea of combining western style back saw with the cutting characteristics of japanese crosscut saw

Well, I'm sure the combination of a blade filed to cut on the pull stroke combined with a handle designed to provide power on the push stroke will indeed be "interesting".

BugBear

Re: Japanese Lie nielsen

Alice Frampton, UK

>S'okay. I put a Western style open handle on a Douz-, Dozu-, Dozo-, er, Japanese back saw and it's not bad at all. Mind you I got the angle of the handle all wrong so it may be nearer the plastic pistol grip type handle you get on Shark saws and the like and thus null and void as an example. On the whole I'd sooner turn a Japanese saw Western than a LN Oriental...

Cheers, Alf

Thom... look at the top of the board!!!!!!!!!

HC Sakman

>That's the very saw I used to make my east/west blend x-cut saw.

Chico...

Re: Garrett Wade...

HC Sakman

>Those were "push" saws though, not pull.

Chico...

Re: Garrett Wade...

Joe Rogers, Northern Virginia

>May be right Chico. Can't find the catalogue now.JR