Another shapton Q

Re: Another shapton Q

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I once used the 12000, at Harrelson's. I honestly don't know how it affected the Muin blades, since I didn't try my plane at the 8000 level. I bought the 2000, 5000, and 8000 stones, with which my blades seem to do just fine. However, I haven't tried to plane the same woods as at Harrelson's (the planing contest used Port Orford Cedar), I typically use cherry, walnut, some syp, etc.

I think this is so subjective that no one can answer for your blades, dai, and wood choices. My suggestion would be to take your blades to the woodworking show and try the 12000, etc. Also take a piece or two of your most used wood for testing.

That said, there's a point at which I run out of patience and willingness to spend what I consider vast sums on a single stone and/or lapping plate. There's absolutely no way I'd even consider the $600+ 30000 or $500 drlp. However, Manny Hernandez has money to spare, and I'd bet he's bought one of everything Shapton. He also lives on the left coast, so he's a good person to ask.

Pam

Re: Another shapton Q

ray k

>by the way, thanks pam for your thoughts on my last post re: harrelson's plane dvd. I'll probably wind up buying that dvd. I really wish I did live in the Bay Area--I heard several people say good things about Mr. Van Arsdale at Lanie college. But I'm hoping the DVD will be the next best thing. I also noticed Harrelson has a chisel sharpening DVD. I'm a bit hesitant to blow $30 on that as chisel sharpening doesn't seem all that complicated (at least on my western bench chisels). I hollow grind them on a slow speed grinder and sharpen by the hand the rest of the way. I can't imagine japanese chisels being much different, but maybe I'm missing something. I guess japanese chisels do tend to be shorter--so grinding on my grinder might not be an option. Do the rest of you just freehand sharpen the bevel side of your japanese chisels?

Oh btw, Pam, I hope your back is feeling better. Get well soon.

Re: Another shapton Q

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Yes, I freehand sharpen everything, including Japanese chisels. Some say you can hollow-grind these chisels; but I just can't figure out how that's a good idea, especially since the top 2/3-3/4 is soft and easy to sharpen anyhow.

My back is doing much better, thank you. Yesterday I was able to stand up and walk around outside for half an hour without pain. This is good, and a first for the last 5 weeks. I attribute it to Ernie's offer to come help us in March.

Pam

Re: Another shapton Q

ThomD

>I agree with Pam, I don't see the 15000 does much, and I can't believe they even offer the 30000. The thing about higher grits is that they take much more time per grit. Harelson was saying the guys who do the comps hone for hours. And relative to our efforts he was really emphasizing spending as much time on the stone as possible. I might normally stay on an 8000 for a few seconds, maybe a minute. He was talking about 2 hours (can you recall Pam?), and I think he was for us polishing all that time, as much as we could anyway, cause some of the planes were more ready than others. I could see if you were willing to spend 8 hours on the 30000 it might get you to the next level, but I already think there is a little too much tool obsession as it is. Another option would be a jig like the LV where you could flat polish at 8000 and go up a titch for each upper grit. That approach really works. But I think the increment would have to be a lot less than 1 deg per stop. The idea one has to work so hard on finer grits might sound a little odd, but it is basically what happens in any smoothing operation from blocking a car to polishing a guitar finish. It's just that for some of these we have tools.

Speaking of which. Hollow grinding works fine. The resultant shape is no problem, except as Pam mentioned, the subsequent hand sharpening happens only on the two points, one of which is very hard and the other is soft. Keep in mind the Japanese do sell round waterstones, they tend to be very large diameter. They also sell fully hardened non lam tools, though not so much. It's like everything else, you want to do it, you can figure out a way around the problems. I don't think I should go into all the pros and cons here it's really another sermon, but it can be done. I have even dry ground some Japanese blades, usually to get a bad nick out. I wouldn't do it on a masterpiece tool, either get it nicked, or dry grind it. I did have a workman take an expensive Ouchii blue steel chisel with ebony handle and use it as a cold chisel to remove an oil furnace... another story.

I have an 8000 King that is a rocking stone. I have a bunch of others, I haven't stepped "up:" to the Shaptons yet, I found them a little hard, and a little anti-waterstone in conception, but they sure do work. There was a guy at the seminar who was a Japanese carpenter, not sure what his role was. He was very snooty about the Shapton stones, and said he wouldn't even try them because they would destroy his tools. There is a school of thought that you need to work your tools with the "right" stuff for years, maybe, and they start to take on characteristics that only come with time. These guys don't seem to like new stones, and don't seem to believe that every trip to the stone is tabula rasa, a whole new thing. I'm not here to say whether that is right or not, no way to know. But I would say that you have to find a balance in your work. There isn't any terribly easy way to just buy your way to sharpening respectability. There seems always to be a higher level. So if you can find a level that suits your work, you may be further ahead. If you buy a 30000 stone there will still be some guy saying it's a hacks tool, and he may well be good enough to call you on it.

Plane competition

Joel

>A plane used for and designed for those planing competions have as much in common with planes used for cabinetry as comeptive timber saws have with real timber saws and stock car racing cars have in common with actual cars that are stock.

They are a terrible role models for real woodworking and being able to plane a very thin shaving of soft wood says nothing about knowing how to plane actual peices of furniture, quickly, evenly, and with minumal effort in both planing and preparation.

(note: I have nothing against planing competions but they are a completely different application with not application to woodworking just like spill planes, or truffle planes have no application to woodworking either. )

Re: Plane competition

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I'm not sure about this, Joel. The kezurou-kai events test very nicely how well the temple carpenters will be able to plane wide beams and posts without planing marks. It truly means something that a plane has taken 100' shavings 5" or 6" wide.

Also, a lot of soft wood is highly desirable for some uses, particularly timber framed buildings. So our class planing contest on POC meant something.

Pam

Re: Another shapton Q

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Oh, yeah, Harrelson was so happy when it turned out the blade he'd just sold me had a dent in it in a corner. I was supposed to stand there sharpening away all the tool steel until it was gone. I almost went down on my knees in admiration of and gratitude to Inamoto-san when he suggested we tap out that dent, then get on with it. My obvious backup was to return it (I'd just bought it that morning) for one without any dents.

That Japanese carpenter was rankar on ebay, the guy who sells Ouichi chisels. I thiink he's actually a boat builder/Japanese tool reseller. I've now accumulated enough natural water stones to give them a try when the shop is finished, plan to flatten them on a concrete or similar block. :)

Pam

Re: Plane competition

ThomD

>I agree they aren't the same thing which is probably why one shouldn't accumulate a 30000 stone and a microscope.

On the other hand the baby steps version we held does deomonstrate the principle that before you move up to a finer stone you may as well put a few hours in on the one you have. Or just forget the whole thing.

Thanks Pam, I didn't realize there was anyone selling ouchii chisels on ebay, I must check that out. I like the blue natural stones. My natural finishing stones don't outperform my artificial ones. I do have one that puts a very good edge on, and it's that matt looking bevel, one would think was not sharp, yet is.

Re: a good start

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>Thanks for a good start to my Saturday. I was going to respond with some of my thoughts on the religion of sharpening, but I think perhaps I will write a novel instead, it may take less time. But I will contemplate the ideas through the day, while I am using an air nailer to install some trim in my dad's house ;) I am going to sharpen my plane iron now; it will take about 3 minutes, finished on the 8000 stone, and will work just fine to clean up some window sills.

Re: Plane competition

Joel

>Should I ever have to plane a piece of furniture with 100' beam in it I suppose it might be relevent but planing competitions are about long thin shavings - real cabinetry or housewrighting is about long thick shavings. If you know what you are doing you get the same quality finish in a fraction of the time.

The goal of professionally plaining woodwork is always the thickest shaving you can get without tearout. It's just faster that way. and it takes real skill to know how far you can stress the tool without calamety. Trying to get ultra thin super long shavings is a different sort of challenge but it's a parlor trick - sort of like balancing a hammer on your nose - shows expertise with a tool and certainly fun to master and looks cool, but that's it.

(shavings aren't important - it's what's left that counts)

completely disagree

tonyr

>i have to respectfully but strongly disagree with this advice. first, the notion of spending hours on any honing stone is ludicrous. second, the idea that the finer grits require more time than the coarser grits is also simply untrue, in my experience and what i have learned from harrelson and others. i can go from a 2000 up to a 15000 in about 3 minutes, proceeding through 5,000 and 8,000 on the way up, provided i am honing and not changing the geometry or removing major chips. i spend LESS time on each successive grit, not more, and i can SEE and FEEL the difference achieved after each successive grit. There is most certainly a difference in the cutting edge left between the 8k and 15k shapton on either japanese or western steel. incidentally, the 15k stone is a MUCH nicer stone than the 8k, which everyone i have ever discussed this with has agreed is the worst stone in the shapton line up (ie, it is the most sticky and the most difficult to use). Whether the difference between the 8K and 15K is significant to you is another matter, but for what its worth i find that a blade taken to the 15k for the last 30 seconds of honing stays useably sharp for a substantially longer period than one taken only to the 8k. Last, I hone only by hand (no jigs) and only use microbevels on my western plan blades.

Re: Plane competition

ThomD

>I agree with your point, but I don't really get why you are making it. Is it your contention that for the fat chip work we both emphasize that the 30 000 is a necesity? I assume obviously not, we are on the same page. I do a lot of my sharpening with sandpaper just because it is cold during the winter, and relatively good edges happen really fast.

Re: completely disagree

ThomD

>I'm not recomending spending hours on stones either. Where did you get that idea? And moving to a finer stone will provide some advantage, the question would be whether the advantage is being fully realized.

You say you can see the difference. I don't doubt the bevel mirrors up a little, the question is what is happening at the edge.

Harrelson has a microscope for looking at the edge and he is the one, not me (unless I am just not recalling this correctly) who made the point about extensive time on the finish stone. I think Odate made a similar point about time on the finishing stones when discussing his new cambered stones, but I didn't buy that copy of Woodwork. He wasn't talking about competition stuff.

My point about introducing the competitions is not to suggest anyone do general carpentry with the same techniques. My point is that something is going on with these long sharpening sessions. Here you have guys who are sometimes pros who grew up in the field, competing, and who are using tools like scopes and jigs to get the most consistant and verified results, and are spending a long time on their stones. Why? Seems to me that they are spending a lot of time eliminating the scratches from previous grits. If there is another reason I would love to hear it.

My Take...

HC Sakman

>Just like anything else in life...... too much of anything is not good.

Chico...

Re: Plane competition

Joel

>I don't see the point of a 30k stone either so we are on the same page.

Re: My Take...

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Sure, Chico, but "too much of a good thing" is a truism. "Too much" is a personal value judgement that says one has too much; therefore it's always a not good situation because one doesn't see the benefit from doing that much.

Pam

Re: Plane competition

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Joel, these contests are almost always undertaken using finish planes; therefore thin shavings are indeed the issue. I was amazed at how smooth and glowing that POC was after planing off a very, very thin shaving. That's how I want my posts and beams to feel and look.

Pam

Re: Plane competition

Joel

>Try a slightly thicker shaving - you should get the same result and it will be faster and easier to do.

You will certainly get the same result after you have applied any finish to the wood.

if the plane is wide enough to cover the entire beam you can use a straight blade, but it is much more typical in furniture to obviously use a blade narrower than what you are planing such as planing a tabletop. So it is typcial practice to have cambered blade - Well with a cambered blade even if the edges of the shaving are 0 the center will be a few thou - that is a lot thicker than the plane competitions use.

Professional practice in western furniture for final planing was use a wide planed short plane to do the bulk of the work and then use a narrow smaller plane for localized planing of difficult areas. It saves tons of time.

I think what I am trying to say is that I seem to constantly run across people who find themselves discouraged after reading instructions on sharpening (for example) that stress making the process harder and harder and more timeconsuming for a very limited specialized result.

In the time when furniture was made by hand, sharpening was an apprentice job.

Incidently with traditional waterstones as you apply pressure in sharpening and let the stone dry the abrasive particles collapse and give you an effectively higher grit. Shapton stones have much harder abrasive which do not break down - hence the need for finer stones than 8k in the shapton line.

This property of traditonal abrasives was never better demonstrated to my then by Toshio Odate who when lapping the back of a plane iron after tapping it out started with a teaspoon of 40grit Silicon Carbide grit. When he was done about 5 minutes later the SC first leveled the back of the plane iron quickly and then fragmented so that when all done he got a mirror polish on the iron.

Re: Plane competition

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Hey, I'm not exactly sold on Shapton stones, even mentioned that I plan to try natural waterstones in a few months when I'll have the space, which I wouldn't undertake unless I had some dissatisfaction. For one thing, the stiction formed when sharpening western blades is a pain, even though there are some things (like digging grooves in the stones) to do to remedy this. To say nothing of my basic predilection for natural vs man made when it comes to managing natural things, like organically grown food for my body; although I doubt that laminated blades are natural occurrences. :) Nor am I going to apologize or modify my behavior because some other people are stressed by sharpening. That's a retailer's and/or teacher's concern, not mine. And of course I agree with you/Odate on slurry forming and that the most critical planing involves a small plane on a large piece, hence using a cambered blade is a reasonable practice.

I disagree completely on trying for thicker shavings on the last pass. A Japanese finish plane is supposed to take a very thin shaving, and it polishes/burnishes as it takes those shavings. The thicker the shaving the more likely is tearout. I'd hate to get to the end of preparing a board only to wreck it all with tearout. Now if you're saying that taking thicker shavings without tearout is the tradition, I will bow to your knowledge. Certainly thicker shavings make the job somewhat easier; although that thicker shaving is harder to take than a very thin shaving.

Pam

Dimensioning and finish planing

mikew

>Hi Joel and Pam,

Here's my methodology--or lack thereof.

When I am dimensioning to thickness, I am taking a coarser shaving. I have no idea what the shaving thickness is because I do not measure them. I am balancing the thickest shaving I can easily manage while attempting to have no tear out or minimal tear out. The issue for me is to work the surface as little as possible, as quickly as I can achieve the desired results.

If I have not experienced tear out, I consider the dimensioning step to be my finish step, unless at that point I need to sharpen prior to finishing taking the stock to thickness with a last pass.

If I have tear out, I judge when to either switch to a plane set for a finer cut or if planing has otherwise been fine, simply resharpen and continue, with the possibility of lessening the cut.

I do generally use a small Knight plane that is set for a very fine cut that I keep very sharp as the last plane to touch major show surfaces. It is used with, against or across the grain. It takes that fine a shaving. The corners are ever so slightly rounded. But at that fine a shaving it probably doesn't matter. It too burnishes as it takes that fine shaving. As fine as it is, there is no way I could use it for removing any tear out.

If there is no way for me to manage tear out prior to getting to the final dimension, I'll pause and work trouble areas with scrapers or simply use a scraper plane to get down to dimension. If I use card scrapers I'll then continue to dimension down to the bottom of those low spots----hopefully stopping just prior to the bottom of the removed tear out and then take those last passes with the Knight plane to even the cut wood surface's sheen as that affects the look of the piece after finishing.

Take care, Mike

Reality...

HC Sakman

>...like you guys are talking about "competition" conditions, which are usually and understandably over the top and extreme.

Under normal cicumstances, even 8k stone is borderline over the top.

People don't drive their cars with over 100 octane gas all the time, right? It's something like that.

Many people's work conditions and circumstances are different. If 30k stone works for you and does what it takes.... that's great.

Chico...

Re: Plane competition

Joel

>just to clarify:

competivie planers are always planing at sub .001" shavings. by thicker shaving for a real finish plane I am talking about .001-.003 thickness which still is pretty thin - or thicker if the wood and plane will take it. Even the thinest shaving with a regular cambered blade will be around 2-4 thou at the center.

the skill is to understand how heavy a cut you can make without trouble.

I just want to know

DaveK

>I just want to know how much longer an iron last if you go to 30 bazillion as opposed to 8000. I gotta make a living doin this. It the finer stones only add a pass or two they ain't worth it to me. Seems like the type of iron is more important.

Re: Dimensioning and finish planing

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Sounds like a good process to me; although on all the stuff I don't plan on finishing I always want the polish/burnish pass.

Pam