Blade Taper in Handsaws - Have a Mike Handy?

Re: Blade Taper in Handsaws - Have a Mike Handy?

mikew

>fwiw, the Pax, while decent saws with too much set--easily remedied--are far stiffer, more like the Keystone you mention, or a late period D-23 or Atkins.

But I'll measure a couple Pax as well tomorrow if someone else doesn't first.

Take care, Mike

Re: Blade Taper in Handsaws - Have a Mike Handy?

Adam Cherubini

>Bob,

I've done this experiment too. When you actually measure the taper, its a bit astounding how little there is. I mean, if the entirety of the taper is a few thousands per side, why not simply increase the set that amount? It was my belief that the taper eases the friction in the kerf. And that the few thou is noticeable.

So I made a saw without taper, expecting it to bind in every kerf. Here's what I found;

1) crappy pine that closed up on me was a problem no matter what saw I used. Taper wasn't the solution, a tiny wedge was.

2) The theorhetical increased set/width of cut of the taperless saw was imperceptible to me. Its teeth are sharp and aggressive and it cuts fast. My #7 is a bit less coarse, a tiny bit less aggressive. Seems to me, the exact shape of the teeth provide more feedback than anything else.--My wife made me try aveggie burger. You'd think these would be nasty, and they are a but drier than a juicy hamburger, but what I taste is ketchup and relish, not meat. Saws are like that, I think.

3)The taper less saw is about .045 thick, about the same as my #7 at its thickest point. The blade is shaped differently as well. But it seems to me to be a much heavier tool. I like that and I don't.

Conclusion: I'm no longer convinced taper grinding is all its cracked up to be. If I have a chance, I'd like to make two identical saws and do a blind taste test. But from this point, its seems the weight is only thing I could say that really makes a big difference- and its kinda nice in some ways.

adam

P.S. Taper grinding a saw is a big big deal. I'm really not sure how to do it. I've tried several techniques. It seems Disston ground hardened saws too. He didn't harden after grinding. I wwould think saws could be a lot cheaper if you didn't taper grind them.

Badger pond thread

Joe Rogers, Northern Virginia

>I remember a thread on Neanderthal Haven that went into detail on this subject. IIRC there were measurements made and sawblanks ground. There were even methods of manufacture discussd by historical sawmakers.

As I don't have an archive cd, perhaps someone that does could quote some of the important details. Steven Thomas was one name that sticks in mind as a prominent poster in the thread and I know he taper ground some sawblanks to test some theories. That may help on the archive search. JR

Thanks, Adam

Bob Smalser, Seabeck, WA

>But when you're cutting 30+ feet of knotty Doug Fir, you need every edge you can get, and I agree taper is a big, big deal.

Would love to make those cuts using a power tool, but one doesn't exist that'll cut a changing bevel in place....and without scratching the paint to boot.

Two zero-set, tapered Disstons in xct and rip flavors do such big, awkward jobs perfectly in less than an two hours. No saw with any appreciable amount of set will without either ruining the paint or adding hours of compass plane work to reach flush.

Re: Blade Taper in Handsaws - Have a Mike Handy?

Gary B

>Adam,

quick question, what have you used/where have you accquired the steel you used to make the saws you created? thanks

Re: Blade Taper in Handsaws - Have a Mike Handy?

Marc in Luxembourg

>Bob,

I bought a new Roberts & Lee rip saw last week. Length 650 mm, handmade, Dorchester model 570, walnut handle, and as the toolshop told: "fully taper ground skew-back steel blade with breasted toothline and bevel sharpened teeth to ensure the finest possible cut without binding".

Here the thickness measures, sorry they are metric:

Back thickness near handle: 1,02 mm

Edge thickness near handle: 0,98 mm

Back thickness at toe: 0,50 mm

Edge thickness at toe: 0,95 mm

Testing after diminishing set and a little filing on a dry oak board 4 cm thick, gave me a 25 cm long cut in one minute without much effort.

The pic shows it with a temagori, my favourite til today.

Marc

Re: Blade Taper in Handsaws - Have a Mike Handy?

Adam Cherubini

>onlinemetals.com,msc. I just order run of the mill sping steel. Works fine. Get the softest brass you can get. I can bend .098 pretty easily in a vise. 1/8" is pretty stout.

Adam

Re: Blade Taper in Handsaws - Have a Mike Handy?

ThomD

>From a blademaking perspective there could be a number of reasons for tapering that might not have to do with better performance in the cut. That would be an exercise in speculation, and not all that relevant to tools made out of rool stell. I tend not to buy the idea, one might advance, that it was all marketing since marketing wasn't the force it is today.

It would be easy to surface grind taper with a magnetic chuck.

For something more traditional, this is what the japanese sawmakers use:

http://www.dfoggknives.com/photogallery/MakingSen/makingsen.htm

Thanks, Marc - Don't know those.

Bob Smalser, Seabeck, WA

>But they go on my list.

Thanks again.

Re: Japanese tool rant

Adam Cherubini

>We have those too, they're called metal scrapers. I don't know why this bugs me. Its like Japan's marketing people have this way of making out like they invented this stuff that no one's ever seen before.

"It is graphite encased in a special soft wood from this place we call a "forest". We use it to make marks on wood or paper. Very convenient. $12.95 each, or 2 for $29.95"

A metal scrapers work like wood scrapers, but only on annealed stuff. I've scraped harden metals before, but it doesn't produce the shavings you need to get the job done in this lifetime. No this is definitely a job for something with a cord on it. The question is what is it? The right thing to do is probably chem mill. But DIY chem mill scares the hydrochloric acid outta me.

Sorry Thom. I know you were just trying to help. I don't mean to jump down your throat. I'd delete this post if I didn't think the rant about the japanese (who I have great admiration for BTW) was funny.

Adam

Re: Japanese tool rant

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I don't think it's Japanese marketing at all, more amateur American afficionadoes (how's that for alliteration?) who attend demos by Japanese tool makers. The tools are so seemingly superior that those of us who are relatively new to tool using try to attribute this superiority to something concrete. It's got to be the materials, the tools used, the tool makers, right?

Anyhow, I know I'd never seen a western sen before a seminar by Yataiki (Miyano del Endo). So perhaps western tool makers should be more forthcoming. :)

Pam

Re: Japanese tool rant

ThomD

>Rant away, I laughed in a good way.

On the other hand we did go through a pretty bleak period, and I still think we haven't fully emerged. The japanese steel is still better than what we typicaly find in western tools even when those tools cost more. I remember woodworking in the late 70s, and it wasn't redundant that folks were bringing in the Japanese stuff. Even to this day, who do we have making serious cabinetmaking tools in the west, it's a footnote compared to what the Japanese produce. Switching gears for a second, I once asked the local makita guy what was happening to their tool imports, and he mentioend there were 100s of tools in the Japanese catalog none of which they import over here. We have the largest collection of the cheapest 1940 Rockwell tools, universaly of poor design, and great bench depth in Stanley knock-offs. I'm not excited.

I agree that we have metal scrapers, I personaly haven't seen anyone using two handed draw knife versions in the western metal working arena.

If you are using the spring stock, is it the 47 RC? Cause if it is it may well scrape.

There are lots of power sanding options. either a disc or a belt grinder will wisk away what you want. And they are controlable, most hand tool guys just don't have the skill.

Re: Blade Taper in Handsaws - Have a Mike Handy?

Christopher Fitch@Memphis

>onlinemetals.com ... cool site. Never heard of them until you mentioned it..

(another bookmark)

Marc, A question...

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>Do you have anymore info on the Roberts & Lee rip saw? Do they have a website?

Re: Roberts & Lee Saws *LINK

Frank Mutchler in Colorado Springs

>I'm not Mark but here's a source for Roberts & Lee saws

Re: Corrected link  *LINK*

Frank Mutchler in Colorado Springs

>


Roberts & Lee Saws

Re: An answer and a question too *LINK*

Marc in Luxembourg

>Scott,

I do not have further information. I bought by Toolpost in UK. Normally saws have 4 to 6 weeks delivery, because they are handmade. You can order special features too. They had mine on stock, so I was glad to have it by one week.

I'm impressed by the quality and the performance. As I saw normally with japanese saws and am very satisfied, I was astonished western sawmakers could have this high level tool today. I have to admit, I never held in hand a LN or Adria saw. I think I will make further investments in this direction.

I was impressed too by your saw till and was wondering how you store your planes. Do they have such a nice cabinet as your saws?

Marc


Toolpost

Re: Marc, A question...

Alice Frampton, UK

>I don't think they have a website, but most (all?) of their range is viewable here I think. I'm sure there must be a US retailer. IIRC, David Charlesworth made favourable noises about their dovetail saw a few years ago.

Cheers, Alf

Sheesh...

Alice Frampton, UK

>... I'm just a slow third place... :~)

Thank you, and an answer...

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>Thanks for the saw info. also the complement on my saw till.

The answer is not yet. The hammers have a nice home now as do my chisles, gouges, files and rasps. Need to get my workbench built then the plane till.

Thanks everyone!

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>