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Neander Dado? Plow plane comparison

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Neander Dado? Plow plane comparison

#1

Neander Dado? Plow plane comparison

Dave Thompson - Champaign IL

>While making some toy trolley/wagon/wheeled drawer things this weekend, I decided to abandon my precision, but zero-fun, stacked dado set and play with the plow planes. I compared a #45, 044, #50, and a closed handle wooden plow plane. My 043 was a bit too small for this drawer bottom. I took some notes and have posted them below for your general rumination and comments. The dados were 1/2" wide, 1/4" deep in cherry. While sharpening the blades before hand, I noticed the factory bevel on all of the blades was 30 degrees. I rebeveled to 25 degrees, with the exception of the wooden plow which had a gumption killing ~�� thick blade.

The dados went fast. I believe I spent more time setting up the planes than making the dados.

All of the dado inner edges were nice and clean. The outer edges (bottom of drawer) were cleanest on the #45, though I attribute this issue more to operator error ;-)

Some features I appreciated:



  • wooden handle � This is a top feature when it�s 27 degrees in the shop. The #45 has this. The 044 and #50 had to be brought in the house to warm up. Perhaps Neal�s coffee mug warmer might be useful for setting this on and warming it up ;-)

  • dual skate � such as on the #45 and #50, aids in stability. One can go at the dado a little quicker (read as sloppier) and it is self correcting.

  • depth adjustment � Of course it�s nice to do fine depth adjustment by turning a screw. Additionally, a depth adjuster locks the blade in place from jumping up as I experienced with my #50 and wooden plow plane.


Record 044

It has a nice compact solid feel. I would prefer to use this on a smaller dado. It has a nice handle above the fence to hold with one�s left hand, which unlike the #50, doesn�t get in the way of the shaving exhaust port. I like that it has a depth adjuster, which locks the blade depth, and provides easy fine movement. Has the nicest polished nickel finish of all.

cons: I wish the handle was a smidge bigger, as it's a little small for my hand. It doesn�t feel quite as stable making cuts compared to the others. I believe this is because it has a shorter single skate and/or shorter fence. One thing to play with might be extending the fence with a longer wood runner. The #044 doesn�t have any nickers.

Stanley #45

For this dado, this was my favorite. As mentioned above, I appreciated the wood handles in the cold. The fine depth adjustment that this has, is very nice. I like the dual skate for stability, and dual nickers which keep the cuts clean. Likewise, the wood ball handle for one�s left hand is really appreciated after using the other planes. The fine adjustment on the fence is handy.

Stanley #50

I like that it has two skate and two nickers, though on mine, the threads on one of the nicker holes has been stripped by a previous owner making one of the nickers unusable. (something to check when buying used).

There isn�t a good place to put one�s left hand. Placing one�s hand on the loop attached to the left skate will block the shaving exit port. I end up placing my index finger and thumb fore and aft of this loop.

I wish this had a depth adjuster and wood handle. Did earlier types have this? More than once, I had to tap the blade back down with a tiny hammer. I do like that the 044 and #45 have optional short fence posts rather than only the long ones.

Wooden Plow

I have an old no-name closed handle with boxwood screw plow plane. I used a �� Sandusky blade beveled at 30 degrees. I tuned it up a few years back, and made a replacement blade wedge, which could probably use a little more refinement. I think it ties the #45 for the most interesting to look at. My biggest issue with this plane is setting and maintaining depth of blade adjustment. There�s a little additional setup time to adjust the fence such that it is parallel to the skate, since there are two independent boxwood screws to lock down. The plane performed well with this dado. Not bad for a ~100+ year old woodie.


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Re: Neander Dado? Plow plane comparison

#2

Re: Neander Dado? Plow plane comparison

Frank Mutchler in Colorado Springs

>Very interesting post, Dave. Could you comment on your technique? Did you use the same technique with all planes? I'm referring to the entry point, e.g.: start at far end of dado & work your way back, etc.

Re: Neander Dado? Plow plane comparison

#3

Re: Neander Dado? Plow plane comparison

Hank Knight from SC

>Thanks for the write-up, Dave. You have given me the inspiration I needed to drag out my 45 and put it to work. It has lived unused on it's shelf for too long.

Re: Neander Dado? Plow plane comparison

#4

Re: Neander Dado? Plow plane comparison

paul womack

> wooden handle � This is a top feature when it�s 27 degrees in the shop. The #45 has this. The #044 and #50 had to be brought in the house to warm up. Perhaps Neal�s coffee mug warmer might be useful for setting this on and warming it up ;-)

The modern(ish) Stanley #50 also has a wooden handle.

The Record #050 was always metal.

BugBear

Re: Neander Dado? Plow plane comparison

#5

Groove vs dado

Jim Reed @ Tallahassee

>Perhaps groove is a better term because a dado generally referrs to a groove perpendicular to the grain. Otherwise, a neat post. A plane race is always fun to watch. I think it always shows that each plane has unique features and explains why one can never have too many plow planes.

Re: Neander Dado? Plow plane comparison

#6

Re: Neander Dado? Plow plane comparison

Dean J in MN

>Not to nit-pick, but these aren't dados. :) Dado planes don't have fences and are optimized to cut cross grain (knickers, and usually skewed blades). Just nail a batten on your case side and cut away. Just as you found in cutting grooves with a plow plane, dados with a dado plane are faster then any 'lectron killing method. :)

Still, great overview and reason enough to hunt down plow planes!

-Dean

Re: Neander Dado? Plow plane comparison

#7

Re: Neander Dado? Plow plane comparison

Dave Thompson - Champaign IL

> Could you comment on your technique? Did you use the same technique with all planes? I'm referring to the entry point, e.g.: start at far end of dado & work your way back, etc.

Your description is pretty much how I used them. I worked my way back finishing where one might consider the beginning.

Of course, keeping the fence against the wood on every stroke is key. In the beginning yaw and roll is an issue. Yaw is not much of a problem with a dual skate, and nickers extended.

I also did not lift the plane up fully on each back stroke, like I typically do with bench planes. The depth of each cut was more akin to a light scrub/jack operation.

The dados went quick... I would guess about a minute for each.

Re: Neander Dado? Plow plane comparison

#8

Groove vs dado

Dave Thompson - Champaign IL

>Thanks Jim and Dean. Yes, you are correct.

We're on a hand tool forum where it's most helpful to keep these distinction, likewise with fillester and rabbet.

Re: Neander Dado? Plow plane comparison

#9

Re: Neander Dado? Plow plane comparison

Mike Real from Pittsburgh

>Great post! I usually don't extend the nickers on my 45 when I am plowing because it seems to pull the plane along the grain making it harder to keep the fence tight. Might be just me though;-)

Re: Neander Dado? Plow plane comparison

#10

Re: Fillester?

Marc in Luxembourg

>Thanks Dave for the plane comparison. I did similar two weeks ago. My woodie plow won the race, because the cutter of the #45 was too long. Strange but that's what actually happened. The cutter came with the plane, but, the depth screw entirely up, the notch fitting, the bevel of the cutter protruded 2 mm over the sole (skates).

My question, knowing what's a dado, a groove, a rabbet, what's a fillester? (English ain't my language)Is this what a dado is to a groove, i.e. a step cut in crossgrain along the boards edge?

Marc

Re: Neander Dado? Plow plane comparison

#11

Re: Fillester?

Frank Mutchler in Colorado Springs

>Mark, it's defined as: "a rabbet or groove, as one on a window sash to hold the glass and putty."

Re: Neander Dado? Plow plane comparison

#12

Cutter too long

Jim Reed @ Tallahassee

>One fix is to cut off the blade at the notch and make a new notch. This technique avoids disturbing the temper of the cutting end.

Re: Neander Dado? Plow plane comparison

#13

Re: Filletster?

Dave Thompson - Champaign IL

>For years (including this morning), I believed with some confidence that a filletster was a cross grain rabbet. Now that I double check, I'm wonder if that's purely in the language of "dave" ;-) I see several unclear and ambiguous definitions, that seem to confuse the name used for a tool and or cut.

I'd like to hear other opinions...

Re: Neander Dado? Plow plane comparison

#14

Steve Kubien

Dual-skate?

Steve Kubien

>Hi Dave and others,

Now bear in mind that I have never looked closely at any of the planes you used in this little project (great write up BTW). What is this 'dual-skate' you refer to? On my Knight plow plane, the skate is one piece, but split where the blade is. Is this a dual skate as you call it or is it some sort of gizma whereby you have a thin skate on each side of the iron to help stabilize the cut?

I know, stupid question. As I said, I've never looked at a combo plane before.

Thanks,

Steve Kubien

Re: Neander Dado? Plow plane comparison

#15

Re: Dual-skate?

Dave Thompson - Champaign IL

>What is this 'dual-skate' you refer to? Is this a dual skate as you call it or is it some sort of gizma whereby you have a thin skate on each side of the iron to help stabilize the cut?

Steve, As you can see from the photo of the bottom side of this Stanley #45, the two skates run along (perpendicular) the edge of the blade. You can see they also support both nickers in front of the blade. The #50 is the same.

In contast my wooden plow plane has a single skate which runs from the center of the blade. The 044 (and 043), has a single skate which runs along the right side of the blade.


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Re: Neander Dado? Plow plane comparison

#16

Re: Neander Dado? Plow plane comparison

Sgian Dubh

>I hate to be a nit-picker regarding exactitude of terminology Dave, but what you're doing there doesn't look like you're creating a dado (aka housing) but it does look suspiciously like you're working a groove, channel or slit. Slainte.

Re: Neander Dado? Plow plane comparison

#17

I think you're right

Adam Cherubini

>I can't for the life of me lay my hands on the source, but I'm almost positive that the word fillester was used to describe a cross grain rabbet.

Also, a sash fillester plane is really not similar to a moving or universal fillester plane. The moving fillester almost always has a nicker iron- I've never seen a sash fillester with one. The general layout of the moving fillester suggests to me its use in producing cross grain rabbets, not long grain rabbets for sash.

That said, its not my guess about the plane that leads me to my belief about the interpretation of this word. I was led here my someone else. If that someone was mistaken, or if I and Dave dreamt this all up, I think its worth sticking with this strict, even if incorrect, interpretation. Long and cross grain joints are very different and require different sorts of tools as anyone who has tried even one will attest. A stacked dado on a tabe saw, like an electric router doesn't seem to care. I can always spot a machinist posing as a traditional hand tool user when he uses the terms groove and dado interchangeably. For him there is very little difference. For me it like the difference between a guitar and a screw driver (tool or cocktail, your choice).

Adam

Re: Neander Dado? Plow plane comparison

#18

Re: Filletster, Fillester, let me count the ways..

Frank Mutchler in Colorado Springs

>John M. Whelan "The Wooden Plane Its History Form, and Function" sheds considerable light on the subject. A summary of the highlights are as follows.

Evidently, a rabbet plane becomes a filletster when the mouth, and iron, are changed and a fence, either integral or moveable is added. He notes that filletsters are almost always (if not always) found with skewed mouths.

Sash filletsters are not considered in the same genre as filletsters but are considered one type of sash plane.

Whelan has much to say about these planes, way too much for me to transcribe, and it is very interesting. I think I bought my copy on ebay.

Re: Neander Dado? Plow plane comparison

#19

Steve Kubien

Aha!

Steve Kubien

>Thanks for that.

Re: Neander Dado? Plow plane comparison

#20

Wooden Plow Plane Recomendation

Tom Colligan, Peoria

>Can anyone offer a recommendation, assuming they're still available? Tia, Tom.

Re: Neander Dado? Plow plane comparison

#21

Seems to me

Jim Reed @ Tallahassee

>that these wooden plows are pretty common and not that expensive on the 'bay. Problem is with the blades. A plow blade is subjected to lots of stress. Accordingly they have a groove on the back to keep them true. Also the good ones are wedge shaped to resist migration back into the plane body. Blade sets are uncommon and new ones are rare because they are so hard to make.

Re: Neander Dado? Plow plane comparison

#22

Re: New ones *LINK*

Marc in Luxembourg

>are common, but not always fitting. I tried a new Ulmia blade in my old plow. It fits snugly. I didn't even had to adjust the wedge. Below a link, where you can have the blades. Scroll down the page to plough plane blades.

Marc


http://www.fine-tools.com/hobele.htm

Re: Neander Dado? Plow plane comparison

#23

Tips for buying a used wooden plow

Dave Thompson - Champaign IL

>I agree with Jim, they are pretty common on e-bay. I think I paid $40 for mine a few years back. Mine is a no-name plane with beech wood body, boxwood screws and nuts, brass hardware (iron skate). It came with one iron. Certain brand names, special embellishments, or special woods are going to bump the price up. Not because they necessarily perform better, but because they have a higher collector value. Good users are cheap.

Most irons are interchangeable, though some are not. The going price at MWTCA meets seems to be around $6 per iron. A full set would be 8 irons (1/8"- 1" in 1/8" increments). My set is a mismatch of various maker brands, but that only matters to a collector. A matching full set will be quite a bit more money.

The wedge tops are often in the worst shape, but they are easily replaced. Personally, I think the thing to focus on when buying a used one are the condition of the screw arm threads and screw nuts (assuming you go with a screw arm plow).

enjoy,

Dave

Re: Neander Dado? Plow plane comparison

#24

Re: Filletster, Fillester, let me count the ways..

Mike L (Orange County, CA)

>"He notes that filletsters are almost always (if not always) found with skewed mouths."

But what about Stanley's #78 duplex filletster and rabbet plane?

Regards,

Mike

Re: Neander Dado? Plow plane comparison

#25

Nice write up, but...

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>Ya need a 46 to complete your line up. Then you probably never pick up the other ones for grooving operations that is.;^)

So many planes, so little time...

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