Raised panels of old (long)

Re: Raised panels of old (long)

John Aniano, in NJ...

>Bjenk,

If I had to guess, I would make the panel first rectangular and field the straight edges with a panel raiser, including the side containing the "tombstone". I would then draw out the curved portion and using various carving tools, remove the waste and blend it into the fielded edge. Maybe not an elegant way, but I'd assume that is one way to do the curved portion.

Others may say that one could use curved-bottom carriage routers, and I would aggree, but these are very specialized tools and not too common. Just carve it out...

Maybe Todd H. can suggest a better way using a tool I'm not aware of (or can't think of right now)...

John

Re: Raised panels of old (long)

Jack Guzman from Maine

>Roy Underhill from "The Woodwright's Shop" showed how to do those on one of his shows. He used a gouge to shape most of it.---Jack

Re: Raised panels of old (long)

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>That's how I do it. Mostly carving with a wide chisel. One trick that helps is to use a panel gauge with a cutting blade as a beam compass to cut the curved portion of the step before you start carving. The fancier ones come with a pivot pin that can be installed in the fence. Put a scrap of wood under the pivot pin, of course. When you are done carving, a card scraper smooths the surfaces.

Re: Raised panels of old (long)

Don McConnell

>The specific techniques of creating curved portions of raised fielded panels by hand seem to be typically glossed over in older texts. Largely due, I suspect, to the fact that the specifics varied greatly, according to the tools available in any given shop environment. Also, it is difficult to avoid any kind of detailed explanation from becoming quite tedious.

However, I'm hoping some brief description may help get a discussion going.

John is correct that the straight sections (i.e. the sides and bottoms) of "tombstone" door panels can be done with planes. Either a panel plane, if you have one, or a combination of planes (rabbet, moving filletster, plough, etc.). I'm assuming a fairly typical edge profile which a panel plane would produce: a shoulder (either vertical or canted), a bevel, plus a lip/ledge to fit into a groove or rabbet.

However, I don't feel the idea of initially creating this profile around a rectangular panel, then cutting out the panel shape, is going to be a great deal of help. In order for the "miters" of the bevels to line up properly with the mitered mouldings of the rails and stiles, the panels need to fit their frames fairly precisely. For that reason, I believe it best to create the outline of the panel first.

The overall outline, and the edge profile details of the panel, can be laid out with a full-sized pattern. But I've found it best to work in such a way that the final size/shape can be test fit into the frame. This can be done by creating the edge profile along the sides and bottom of each panel - i.e. the straight portions which can be done with planes. Then, a rabbbet, of the appropriate width and depth, can be created along the top portion of the panel. This produces the lip/ledge which fits into the groove in the top rail. The bulk of the waste can be removed with a gouge, then the rabbet can be cleaned up with chisels and a router plane - checking the lip with a "mullet."

The panel can then be test fit into the frame, and any adjustments made to allow for a uniform fit around the entire perimeter of the panel.

The shoulder/sinking can then be defined by creating another, shallow, rabbet - making any adjustments in the layout which have been dictated by the test fit. (I'm assuming a vertical shoulder/sinking for ease of discussion.)

Once you are happy with that, you can then tackle the bevel portion of the edge profile. I like to define the inside "miters" with a chisel of the appropriate width before begining to remove too much material. Once those are established, then the bulk of the remaining waste can be removed by any means you are comfortable with. A shallow gouge can be quite useful for initial stages, though it is easy to go too far if not careful.

The final clean up of the bevel can be accomplished in a number of ways. In addition to chisels, including skewed ones, rasps and files can be quite useful. And, now that I'm working with floats nearly every day, I'm surely going to try them the next time I'm faced with this kind of a task. Final sanding of the surfaces is appropriate.

Best,

Don McConnell

Eureka Springs, AR

Re: Raised panels of old (long)

Bjenk Ellefsen

>John, I think that`s it. It makes sense that a gouge would be used to do that part.

William, can I see an example of the gauge you are mentioning ?

Re: Raised panels of old (long)

Bjenk Ellefsen

>Wow, thanks Don for your very informative response.

a LAME and LOUD but FAST solution...

frank shic (walnut ck, ca)

>bjenk, kudos to you for making a brief intro! i will soon follow your lead!

you know what i'm coming to realize, bjenk? there are some processes that are a lot EASIER to achieve with machinery such as cutting stock to width/length with a table saw.

arched raised panel doors are another reason that i won't be selling off my two routers off any time soon. while i would like to eventually be able to carve them out by hand, it'll take several years before i get to that level - hey, i'm still STRUGGLING with a basic TENON for crying out loud!!!

a router and some arch templates either home or pre-made will do the job very quickly - although if you want the classic tombstone effect, you'll have to square up the corners by hand. fine woodworking has had several articles on this process.

as far doing square raised panels, i look forward to whacking ALL of them out by hand in the near future.

Re: a LAME and LOUD but FAST solution...

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>Be careful when selecting your templates, frank. Yes, you can do it that way, but the guys who make the modern templates just don't understand the aesthetics of the traditional panels. Even after carving out the corners, they just don't ever seem to look right - too soft and mushy. If you've got to do it that way, at least make your own templates.

Re: Help?

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>Someone help me out here. I can't seem to remember where I saw an example of the panel gauge I described, with a place for a tramel point and a cutting knife edge.

well i wouldn't want THAT!

frank shic (walnut ck, ca)

>thanks william! SOFT and MUSHY are not the adjectives i'd want to characterize my work - although i'd be satisfied for COMPLETE and FINSIHED!!!

Re: Raised panels of old (long)

Adam Cherubini

>Hi Bjenk,

I've never done it. I watched Andy Chapel Dick make a persian arch topped panel last year in Wmsburg. As Don said, the panel periphery was cut to shape first. Then the fillet was defined and I dont' recall how. I think he just knifed it and followed up with a series of gouge cuts of with a matching sweep. The raise or beveled portion was cut very anticlimactically with a wide chisel. Half the job was probably done in 10 minutes tops as I recall. I don't recall any special planes, templates or anything.

I have made many many rectangular raised panels without a panel raiser (recently picked one up on ebay and paid way too much for it- buyer's remorse!). I originally attempted to make the panels Don described- the panels with a flat around the edge that fits into the frame's groove. I found this to be quite a bit harder than Don made it sound (not blaming Don, love Don). My rabbets don't leave nice clean anything cross grain, and then there were the plane tracks. Turns out, many 18th c furniture makers had similar problems. All the pieces I have examined, and a few examples of 18th c house joinery I've seen all had panels with no flat on the edges. The bevels just ran out to form an 1/8" edge. I've since spoken with Mack Headley about this and his experience was similar. Never went into any further research since I had plenty of precedence (excuses) and this is a lot easier to make (when you're lazy like me).

I think the faceted raise is machine made or made with a special panel raising plane. These planes aren't commonly seen in 18th c inventories. I'm trying to think if I've ever encountered one? They did exist, because I've seen 18th c versions. The tombstone door was an early baroque style that people probably didn't make many of in the mechanized 19th c.

One more thing (and if this is too confusing, skip it): Pretty sure Andy said the raise angle wasn't normal (perpendicular) to the arch- meaning the angle changed all along- meanng you can't possibly cut that correctly with a router. Its more like a vertical projection of the shape. There are some fine examples in philly I could check for you.

Adam

The much maligned Fine Woodworking

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

>(including by me) did a very clear article on making these panels some years back - after the color photos started, but before the quality went downhill.

I don't know if the article appears in any of the reprint books - you could probably look it up on their article index and then hunt around for the issue.

Re: The much maligned Fine Woodworking

Bjenk Ellefsen

>Thanks Bill, I will hunt that article down for sure.

Re: Raised panels of old (long)

Bjenk Ellefsen

>Adam, I'd be delighted if you had images that could show some good examples. The ones I've seen I wasnt sure if they were genuine.

I too don't think the flat around the edges was common. I have been looking at a couple of panel raiser to buy one but I fail to see how the shape of the cutter can produce a flat. But I'm definitely not an expert at this.

Patrick Leach is selling one on his current tool list that is in excellent shape and he took the picture so we can see the shape of the cut. I don't know if this is representative of the other raiser planes though.

Re: Raised panels of old (long)

Don McConnell

>I agree that fielded panels with a flat lip/ledge at the edge of the bevel to enter the groove are probably less common than those with the simple bevel edge. They are more difficult to make with non-specialized planes (though it can be done), and it would probably make sense to use a panel plane (see image) if contemplating making any number of them.

The panel plane illustration, from the 1873 D. R. Barton catalogue, isn't entirely typical of all panel planes, but is close enough to give a rough idea. The cross section illustration is as seen from the toe, and the fence is on the right. The fence registers on the edge of the panel, tilting the plane up at an angle so it works on the spring. The iron follows the next three angles, so its cutting edge is one long straight edge bordered with short, angled, corners. This particular plane is designed to produce a vertical shoulder/sinking, so has a nicker for the cross grain work at the ends. Many panel planes leave canted shoulders, so usually don't have nickers. Some panel planes are listed in 19th century British catalogues as producing coves at the shoulders. Another wrinkle is that some panel planes have moveable fences and depth stops to allow for small dimensional changes of the margin.

I believe one of the uses for raising planes (see image) is to produce the simple bevel fielded panels. It can be used like a moving filletster plane to create a wide shallow rabbet, producing the shoulder/sinking. Then tipped at the appropriate angle it can be used to create the bevel, relying on the fence to avoid fouling the shoulder, or edge of the field. Raising planes were available in the smooth plane size as well as the jack plane size shown in the illustration (also from the 1873 D. R. Barton catalogue).

Incidentally, I'm using these terms in the manner which I believe to have been customary in the 18th century. And, it so happens that this D. R. Barton catalogue follows that usage. But, the terminology became quite muddled during the 19th century, and one can find all kinds of variations in British and American catalogues.

Don McConnell

Eureka Springs, AR

Re: Raised panels of old (long)

paul womack

>I have made many many rectangular raised panels without a panel raiser (recently picked one up on ebay and paid way too much for it- buyer's remorse!). I originally attempted to make the panels Don described- the panels with a flat around the edge that fits into the frame's groove. I found this to be quite a bit harder than Don made it sound (not blaming Don, love Don).

I was doing this recently

People may find this of relavance too.

I was getting pretty good surfaces, even cross grain, although I was using 2 tools, one (brand escapes me) for the bulk work, and a rather fine condition Mathieson, highly tuned and finely set for the finishing passes.

I guess the UK Victorians used different tools or technique than the 18c guys, since they did these kind of panels all the time, with splendid results.

BugBear

Re: door panels made by hand...  *LINK*

paul womack

>


http://www.wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.ph

Hi Don

Ron in Kokomo

>Good to see your post. I hope things are well with you

Ron a Kokomo Galoot

Re: Perch and Rob Lee : 3 planes for that job

Bjenk Ellefsen

>Adam, I found a reference about the different panels produced by panel planes and some more details about the flat that fits into the grooves.

I am not sure how accurate the reference is, The authors could be wrong though. In the book by David Perch et Rob Lee they present 3 different planes that were used for this job.

A panel plane produced a straight and squared field. A panel with four rabets if you wish.

A Badger plane that produced a profile with no flat.

A panel raising plane that produced a profile with a flat that fits into the grooves.

Anyone know if this is accurate ?