FWW responds to LC patent issue *LINK*

Re: FWW responds to LC patent issue

Todd Stock

>Very 'honorable' indeed... and very entertaining.

Re: FWW responds to LC patent issue

Rob Lee

>Well Dan -

Don't believe everything you read.... there's always selective editing, and a slant.

I'm done discussing this one publicly - I know who's both morally and legally correct here... taking it any further is a waste of time, and resources.

Cheers -

Rob

It's Funny Really

Jim Shaver - Oakville, Ontario

>Hi Dan,

Thanks for that....reminds me, that isn't FWW is a woodmagazine and LV a tool maker...maybe FWW could regain some credability (with me at least)in what they have lost over the years if they go back to what they used to be respected for instead of this.

You know where I stand on LV...

take care,

Jim

Re: FWW responds to LC patent issue

Dean in Burlington

>Wow!!!! I'm shocked!!!!

Not shooting the messenger but...

Steve Kubien

>...can we, collectively, please drop this subject? I fail to see how this has anything to do with woodworking, handtools, collecting tools, techniques or the generally good-natured banter we enjoy here (especially poking fun at Todd O as he ages).

Respectfully,

Steve Kubien

Amen!

bill tindall

>axes should be gound on the Ax Grinding Forum, where ever it is(I don't have time to visit it). The whole affair is none of our business.

I can't access the bloody forum...

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>Doesn't work in either Firefox or IE. Cookies are enabled, Java and Javascript are both on, I even de-activated Norton Internet Security, still no go.

What's the trick to access the forums? I login, the site recognizes me, but as soon as I try to enter one of the forums I get a "seamless registration error". You can click on a link to login again, but the link leaves you in that page.

I tried to access from two PCs, one of which doesn't have any antivirus protection. No workie.

I'd like to read what's been written before making comments...

DC

Re: I can't access the bloody forum...

Paul Kierstead

>It would seem the registration error isn't all that seamless after all.

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

I give it a 99% chance that both parties are being stubborn, pig headed, believe they are absolutely right and are behaving contrary to their own good sense and benefit. Situation normal for us human beings.

I'll second that Amen!

Thomas Skaggs, Foothills of Mount Level

>This is not a matter that we know all the facts of nor ever will. It is a legal matter between two parties which neither one are us!

Tommy

Re: Not so fast

Dean in Burlington

>Ah....but nobody was saying that last week when we were only getting Rob's side of the story. It's nice to hear both sides....or by the sounds of it from you guys.....it's hard to hear both sides!!!!!

patent disputes or ToddO aging...

Ted Owen, Pittsburgh

>Two ugly thoughts : )

Best, Ted

Re: Yeah, but...

ThomD

>The who did what to whom is not of interest to me. It is not positive for either, that two brands, that I respect, have an issue, whatever that may be.

This issue does jump right into the middle of an area that is of importance. I think that FWW does have a point in saying what is this about if personal use is not at issue? I have learned from this because contrary to one thing (I think) Lee said, we may not have the right of personal use. I always thought we did, broadly, though not commercially. Toolmakers may not want to spit in their client's faces. Just as some rock bands have chosen not to bash downloading. These tools are largely boys toys, and it can readily happen that people buy all of them, and make their own also as seen in a magazine, just to see if one works better. That is often what people really do with this stuff. The most respected voices on this board are tool hounds who buy everything, and people who would like to follow them. I would imagine the number of people making a living with a hand dovetail jig with preset angles is close to zero. So where one takes this stuff is an interesting issue. If it is all a gray mater of property rights and business decisions, my business decision would be to ignore all these flash inventions and get back to practicing the fundamentals.

This is not an industrial activity any longer, and it isn't clear who is really feeding whom in all this. Why did I buy a BU Jointer when I have several other jointers already? I just like to find out what the buzz is about. Every day I have to get my way through a certain amount of pro woodwork, with hand tools, I haven't even taken the BU Jointer out of the box, and I probably will never try out the LV DT jig unless I do more seminars, or use the turning centering jig unless I loose my mind, it's sitting next to my never used version two sharpening jig. So this quarter I squeezed about 500 bucks into LV, (jointer, and some shaves I actually needed). And maybe gave 10 bucks to FWW. Maybe I should stop reading the magazines, and stick to making my own stuff!

(Pic shows a few board loads of never used, or once used LV stuff, that in most cases I probably bought in response to FWW coverage, though I guess not recently. There is lots more stuff I didn't unearth.)

Re: Not so fast

mikew

>Just don't believe we are hearing both sides of it from what was printed/typed anyway.

Neither side is going to share the whole story (most likely). Neither has anything to gain and only something to lose--regardless of what we as individuals believe.

To one person, for instance me, I believe a company has every right to protect its patents, else why bother? To another, they might look at that as self-serving and anti-woodworker. I personally do not think so.

What we hear is to whatever degree spin-control. By both parties.

But it is a private dispute. Best left to them imo.

Mike

Well Said Paul

Todd O. Cronkhite Maine Native in FL. Exile :~(

>I think as has been stated Let's call it a draw, and leave it as you saySituation normal for us human beings.

I have no idea of all the legalities behind this, and truth be told really don't care to. I can honestly say tho, requardless who's equipment I see, if I think I can build a homemade version of it I do, and don't give one iota of a thought to patent infringements as I know that my version will more than likely not match the manufactured one anyhow, and if anything would more than likely encourage me to buy the manufactured one in the end.

Todd O. 44 years and 8 days old now. At least the hair loss has declined over the years,:~) good thing, because I was almost out of it. :~( And I still like Disco. So, what say we all just Boogie Down with some KC and the Sunshine Band and forget all this marlarkey eh, 'cause That's the Way I Like it, Ahhhhhhh Ha! Ha! Ha! that's the Way I Like It..................... ;~)

Re: Well Said Paul

Dan Clermont in Burnaby

>Happy Birthday TOdd,

Speaking of hair. My wife was walking my daughter to school and the topic of "don't put gum in your hair came up". My daughter paused and said to my wife "Is that what happened to the top of Daddy's head?"

Trust me. She ain't gonna put gum in her hair now ;)

Cheers

Dan Clermont

Re: FWW's last straw

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>I can read you know, and it is very clear to me, even reinforced by this post, that the only thing Lee Valley wanted initially was recognition that they had a patent on this tool. The reply that FWW sent them would have made me angry too, and I would have responded with all the strength I had. It seems to me if the government issues someone a patent, the patent holder is given permission to have exclusive manufacturing rights. It is not up to the person who applys for the patent to determine whether the idea is worthy of being patented; that is the duty of the patent office. I could write a book about what has gone wrong here I think, but am not going to waste my time. Suffice it to say that I am going over to the FWW web site right now and canceling my subscription, and in the near future will be placing an order for a few small things I have been wanting from Lee Valley, and in fact have decided that Lee Valley is probably a better place than most companies to buy tools from.

Re: Yeah, but...

Rob Lee

>Thom -

Our dispute with FWW was over "Inducement to Infringe" - which means, of course, that individuals must be infringing...by definition.

Individual infringement is one of those virtually unenforceable things...like installing two copies of the same software, taping a record, or photocopying a book or magazine.

This is more of a "Napster" type situation - where it's the organization, or promotion of the activity that's the issue. The response in "Knots" covers a lot of ground, and a number of responses from a number of people, over a lot of time.

I, personally, have repeatedly stated that the entire issue between us has nothing to do with the readership of FWW. The "quote" provided was an excerpt from a lawyer... and yes, under the law, a person is infringing, if they copy any patented product. Is it enforceable? No, not that I know of... and the only time I've seen any attempt at warning individuals occurs when an individual is promoting others do the same.

At some level, laws come down to individual ethics, especially when the activity is unenforceable. I regularly drive a small amount over the speed limit...and am breaking the law by doing so. I also open doors on the traffic side of a car while parked - that too, is against the law (in some places, anyway).

Each of us makes our own justification for what we do. I feel that what's important about legislation, is to respect the intent, even if it means not necessarily following the letter of the law.

It's possible to accept a practice, while not explicitly condoning it, if the legal intent is followed.

Going back to the patent question - one of the interesting things about "Inducement to Infringe", is that there's apparently no requirement to pursue the infringer, in order the deal with the larger issue. I find that telling - and it certainly underscores for me what the real issue or focus of legislative intent is....

Cheers -

Rob

Re: reasonably easy

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>If you go to the FWW website, then find their customer service page and "contact us", there is a form to contact them and cancel your subscription. I found it fairly easy and it made me feel good about getting better at the way I manage my money. We'll see how long it takes or if I get any money back. Perhaps I will have enough money to get that big Norton water stone I've been wanting.

ToddO aging...

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

>His body may be aging, but it's clear that he's maintaining his eager, childish - er, childlike - spirit.

Re: Well Said Dan

Ted Owen, Pittsburgh

>I couldn't help but burst into laughter when I read that one.

Best, Ted

From the mouth of babes. Beautiful!!!

Steve Kubien

>

Re: FWW's last straw

john jesseph

>Somehow, I have not come to the same conclusion. I'm not too keen about trying to guess who did what, or assuming any facts when they aren't open to us. Sure doesn't make me want to go out on a Lee Valley shopping spree. However I might drop my subscription to FWW because the magazine doesn't interest me anymore...

Re: FWW's last straw

Dan Clermont in Burnaby

>I don't think their is a "winner" with this patent issue.

I just got my Tools and Shops today and read the apology. I think the apology is fine. It states they made a mistake and promise to apologize if it ever happens again with LV or any other patent they may infirnge. After all we are talking about the Methods of Work section where people are showing off the inventions that help them cope with day to day woodworking. I truly believe it was a mistake.

I will still continue reading FWW and will maybe even send in a MOW or two over the years. I will still shop at LV as well. Not cancelling anything nor am I condoning either party but their are two sides to every story and I am glad Anatole told his side whether it is right or wrong we can't judge because none of us are truly involved nor do I want to be stuck with the legal bills if it got that far.

Seems like everything is bloddy well patented and infringement is quite likely when it comes to "jigs" displayed in magazines

Cheers

Dan Clermont

Re: FWW

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>It seems funny how many people will agree on here that FWW is not as good as it used to be, don't care for it much, but continue in their subscription to it. Actually, I have no beef with people that wish to do that.

Here's my beef with this particular incident. FWW was sent a nice letter mentioning that their published article infringed on a patent. Now, instead of investigating a little bit, and sending a letter of apology, they just sent back a letter saying "I don't think so". This is the gist of what the FWW editor posted today. This is an act with about as much class as Judd had when he got voted off Survivor tonight. It just shows the stuff that the magazine is made of I guess, so I am just saying I put my money where my mouth is, and hope others will do the same.

A magazine about fine woodworking could be a real work of art. It could be a class act. It could be detailed and informative. I hope someone will step in and fill the order.