The latest love

Re: Truly beautiful - a pigsticker price question

Todd Hughes

>Interesting, just about the prices I remember them going for and predicted , maybe a couple went a little higher.Kind of surprised that the one sorby hit $40 but then the prices of most chisels on ebay are doing very well right now....I might have to dig some out and list them anyway. Truthfully I don't see that many and most that I do come across have because of thier weak design busted up handles. I have replaced the handles using old axe / maul handles for donor wood but if you are doing it to chisels you are going to sell sure ain't worth the trouble....Todd

Re: The latest love - can I beg a favor?

joel -( tools for working wood)

>I can't really see a sharp distinction between primary and secondary angles on the tool but i guess that's the angle of the shot not the chisel.

The rounding of the primary bevel so that it blends with the front of the chisel is done to help make a smoother levering out on deep mortises - like on big doors. We elected not to do it on our mortise chisels because it's easy to do yourself, most people aren't doing 2" deep mortises, and we figured that a lot of people would look at the rounding as a problem for sharpening. However that's how early 19th cent. mortise chisels were made.

incidently the Sheffield key (1816) lists 3 different styles of these mortise chisel. "mortise chisels", "Best Joiner's Mortise chisel", "Best cabinet mortise chisels" I have not been able to find out the difference, and exactly what differences are in the tools that survive - that is are the difference in surviving tools style difference or just differences between makers.

Galoot origins

Bruce, a MN Galoot

>'IIRC, it was the same dealer who hung the "Galoot" moniker on all of us "knuckle-draggers," now worn as a badge of respect.'

PaddyO and I disagree about this, but I maintain it was Steve Lamantia, not Patrick Leach, who labeled us.

That is, if it truly matters.

Bruce

Re: The latest love - can I beg a favor?

joel -( tools for working wood)

>I hate the term "galoot" as well. Who would you trust and hire to build a cabinet? a Cabinetmaker? or a Galoot?? It might be a fine term to describe some beginner wandering around a flea market and buying old rusty tools at a greatly inflated price to the amusement of the dealers, but it says nothing about the long tradtion of woodworking and the skill level you see amongst professionals and some of the serious amatures who do really fine work.

Samual Pepys writing in his diary has fine recollections of the cabinetmaker who worked for him remodelling his house. "Simon The Joyner" is a fine moniker.

joel - (iron monger)

ps - where I come from English Oval Bolstered Mortise Chisels (EVOBMC) are called mortise chisels, everything else is a sash mortise chisel, Heavy duty sash mortise chisels might better be called "continental mortise chisels" and Sorby still correctly calls its registered chisels "registered chisels" it was some recent retailers who decided to sell them as registered mortise chisels which they aren't.

Re: The latest love - can I beg a favor?

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>Joel, I hope you realize my comments were tongue-in-cheek, and the humor was directed at the way language works, and not at you or your high quality wares.

I'm pleased to know that it is acceptable to just call them "mortise chisels," because when I try to say "oval bolstered," my tongue gets twisted around my eye tooth, and I can't see what I'm saying :^)

Re: The latest love - can I beg a favor?

joel -( tools for working wood)

>William,

didn't think you were that serious, didn't and wasn't planning to take offense.

joel

beg to differ

Adam Cherubini

>The rounding of the primary bevel so that it blends with the front of the chisel is done to help make a smoother levering out on deep mortises

While I believe this to be true, I'm unwilling to say the round bevel is the result of this. There's no documentation to lead anyone to this conclusion. I think its worthwhile to not attribute the shape to this operation. There may be other reasons.

However that's how early 19th cent. mortise chisels were made.

Made? Look again at Smith's key (I haven't got it in front of me) and tell me if it shows rounded bevels from the manufacturer. Pretty sure they are flat. If, IF, I'm correct, this shows the shape to be user created/intentional. Or is it????

incidently the Sheffield key (1816) lists 3 different styles of these mortise chisel. "mortise chisels", "Best Joiner's Mortise chisel", "Best cabinet mortise chisels"

Gabriel may be of assistance. Setts of joiner's chisels seemed to include larger sizes (required for [house] "joinery") while Cabinetmaker's sets stopped at 1/2" and included 1/8" (I think). Okay, I need to review all this. I think the differences between joiner's mortisers and cabinetmaker's chisels were only the size and possibly the heft, tho I have nothing to base that on.

I know that in Smith's Key, the price list indicates certain styles were available in certain sizes, other patterns or style were available in different sizes. No one chisel was made in every size. This suggests to me that the different patterns were for different operations, and weren't just different strokes for different folks.

The rounded bezel appears on many, many early tools. There's no question that the rounded edge is stronger than a concave bezel. Its formation may have more to do with period sharpening technique than any usage concern, though its easier to control the depth of a pare operation when the bezel is convex/rounded. Tho I pare a lot (as you all know) I'm also unwilling to suggest paring is the reason for the shape.

Adam

Re: beg to differ

joel -( tools for working wood)

>"The rounding of the primary bevel so that it blends with the front of the chisel is done to help make a smoother levering out on deep mortises

While I believe this to be true, I'm unwilling to say the round bevel is the result of this. There's no documentation to lead anyone to this conclusion. I think its worthwhile to not attribute the shape to this operation. There may be other reasons."

I agree that there is no written documentation to support the conclusion but it does work better that way. Also all the early apparently unaltered mortise chisels that I know of are rounded like that.

"However that's how early 19th cent. mortise chisels were made.

Made? Look again at Smith's key (I haven't got it in front of me) and tell me if it shows rounded bevels from the manufacturer. Pretty sure they are flat. If, IF, I'm correct, this shows the shape to be user created/intentional. Or is it???? "

The regular Mortice chisel is drawn with a flat bevel the other two joiners and cabinetmakers are shown with what looks like a rounded bevel.

note: the bevel is rounded as it blends into the front edge, then it straighten up into the primary bevel. You do get a lot of chisels with rounded secondary bevels, but that's because of the user.

in the past I have typically hollow ground the primary bevel on my mortise chisels. I just don't have any way of making them flat. I would agree that flat would be better- but so far I haven't broken any in use. The primary bevel should be very low - 20 degrees or so for penetration. it's the secondary bevel =that gives the tool it's strength.

Thanks Derek...

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>I'd love to see some pic of how you did it. Great job!

I thought they were called...

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>Ship wright's (sp?) mortise chisels, but then I've been wrong plenty of other times...

I agree!

Adam Cherubini

>Pigsticker is a ridiculous and nondescriptive term. Is a long Bob Smalser style socket firmer a pig sticker? I've read many posts where someone suggest using a pigsticker, and invariably someone else asks what one is and where to buy one.

I totally agree with Joel when he says its a degrading term as well. As I understand it, a pigsticker is a long slender knife or short sword used when hunting wild boar. There is a backwoods connotation here, that just doesn't fit with a sophisticated tool required for fine furniture.

Because this term creates confusion, and creates the illusion of a hand tool cliche complete with its own self defined code words, and connotes nothing remotely relevant, I think its high time to abandon it.

I prefer early names, before Stanley's ham fisted marketing department screwed stuff up. The early name for the tool in question is clearly "joiner's or cabinetmakers mortise chisel". This distinguished the tanged version from the "socketed mortise chisel". Aside from Sash mortise chisel, I've never seen the term "mortise" attached to any other chisel.

Adam

Re: The latest love

ThomD

>Those are certainly cute Derek. Though I wouldn't want to hit them with my big hammer.

I'm making a Podmaniczky style morticing chisel at the moment, it is profile ground from a solid slab of tool steel top to bottom, and it has scales attached to the sides made of Bronze. They were described in FWW# 66, I am just getting to '87 as far as the project backlog goes...

Re: The latest love

Derek Cohen (in Perth Australia)

>Hi Thom

"Cute" - :>) - is not an adjective I'd use to describe these mortise chisels. The handles are each 5 1/4" long. The woods (Jarrah and Blackbutt) are extremely hard and will withstand a severe pounding with a heavy mallet. While I use a wooden mallet, I have hit them with my heavy Japanese hammer, and this did not even dent the endgrain.

Regards from Perth

Derek

If not for Joel, then for the pig, at least!

David Barnett - Venice, Florida

>And if not out of respect for the pig, then for living past presidents.

And if not for living past presidents, maybe for Monica.

Ok... then at least out of respect for a good hand-rolled cigar.

______________________________

I worry that it's all-too-easy to get over-sensitized, effete and downright prickly regarding our oh-so-important passions. 'Galoot' too... well, galootish? That was the point, of course. Silly? Sure. But it doesn't get under my skin, which is obviously too thick for such porcine penetrators. If you'd presented a truly offensive connotation rather than what seems a personal pedantic foible (I have mine, too, btw) I'd be more sympathetic to your sensibilites, Joel, but as it stands, I'm still willing to avoid saying p.., uh, you-know-what, or at least, to give it a try (amongst this august and genteel Worshipful Company of Galoots -- a term which I cannot so readily relinquish). But as Wm. Duf'dOTC says, it ain't easy to deflect the etymological morphogenesis of living languages, which may explain why I just can't help hearing (in my mind's ear) Daffy's Tourette's-like ... "PIGTHTICKER! PIGTHTICKER! PIGTHTICKER!".

The true story? *LINK*

Michael Recchione

>It was before my time, but I'd always heard the story told with Patrick Leach being the one who coined the term in response to five (or some similar number) of requests for sawsets that he got within seconds of one another.

Do you have another version?

The way I heard it, Steve Lamantia invented (or rediscovered) ScarySharp(tm).


scroll down to why does everyone call me a galoot

How 'bout Porker Poker ?

Todd Hughes

>

Re: The true story?

Bruce, a MN Galoot

>Scary sharp has been around for a long time. I think machinists and patternmakers had developed it. Steve Lamantia was a friend of a guy named David Opincairne, who was an apprentice patternmaker. David introduced Steve to the idea, but Steve wrote it up and coined the phrase. He was/is a great writer. He was also the one who told the story of launching his grandfather's #8 out his garage window and down a ravine, ending up with the admonition to be aware of "where it's gonna go if it slips."

If you read the galoot origin story, you'll notice there were four original galoots. I am one of the four. Steve L, Geoff Mason, Mike Davies and me (Bruce Haugen). Paddy O and I still argue about this one. He's a friend of mine and has been a guest in my house.

This all started in a sidebar discussion on rec.woodworking. At one point we invited Paddy into the discussion and he asked who "we" were. Steve said, "a bunch of galoots" interested in sawsets. Steve, Geoff, Paddy and Mike all wrote to Leachmeister and wanted sawsets (really the impetus for the oldtools list). I already had a 92. Leach did call us galoots, but by then Steve had already named us. That's my story and I'm sticking to it, although Pat's version is a better story.

Bruce

Re: How 'bout Porker Poker ?

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>The part of the brand I can read on mine says "W BUTCHER" . I'm beginning to worry about the connotations of that one. Also, underneath, I can read only the last two letters, "LD". Hopefully, that means Sheffield, which as Todd noted, is appropriate, if these are all from England.

After complaining about the twistedness of the "oval bolster", I went looking for other tongue twisters. I decided I had gone too far when I encountered the one about the fig pluckers.

William, truly rural, on the Cohansey

Re: The latest love

ThomD

>Depends on your frame of reference. The one in the middle weighs a ton, and it received it's solid bronze grip plates yet. The others are some euro monstrosity that has the same tang construction as the Isles, but cute it isn't. To round things out, that's a 1" Tasai.

Re: I agree!

ThomD

>Agreed, I didn't know which sharp tool they were refering to.

Most pigstickers are a lot fancier than most mortising chisels. The boys take their cutlery seriously.

I'm not even sure I could type that one safely.

David Barnett - Venice, Florida

>

Re: How 'bout Porker Poker ?

Alice Frampton, UK

>Anyone else have a mental image of a group of pigs sitting round a table playing cards...?

Just me then.

Cheers, Alf

Re: I agree!

paul womack

> and creates the illusion of a hand tool cliche complete with its own self defined code words,

"Tool slaving"

BugBear (G, D & R)

Re: How 'bout Porker Poker ?

paul womack

>Anyone else have a mental image of a group of pigs sitting round a table playing cards...?

Makes a change from those damn cats and dogs...

BugBear

The rest of the story...

Bob Hackett

>I heard that the original chisels had round handles and when one rolled off the bench of the inventor and lodged in his foot he immediately launched into a passable impression of a Durock(a type of hog).Hense the "pigsticker" was born.

It is rumoured that the gentleman was so traumatized by the event that he would stutter like porky pig whenever he saw one of the chisels after the accident.The developement of the oval(non-rolling)handle was left to a shop helper.

Da-da-da-da dat`s all ffffolks.

Mainely,Bob-In the grip of MAJOR drugs from the latest surgery.If SWMBO comes in and finds me typing with both hands and sans sling I`LL be the one doing the Durock impression.