Est. 1998 — 27 years of woodworking knowledge
Hide glue
McKay Sleight from Utah
>I just used tightbond's hide glue for the first time tonight. I really like the ease of use. Can someone tell me why I would like to have a copper pot, mess, and brush? There must be a reason. Thanks in advance for the information.
Re: Hide glue
L. Hanson
>I'm far from an expert...
The hide glue you get in a bottle contains ureas to extend the life and make the glue liquid at room temperature. The glue still has a shelf life so won't last forever, and the urea reduces the strength of the glue, too - how much I don't know, though I don't believe its a big factor, I just remember reading it somewhere. I do know the most problems I've heard with it when it has failed, its always been due to having gone bad.
As long as the glue is fresh, I don't see it being a big issue. Remember, time on the shelf on the store is also a factor. Stewart McDonald (the luthiers supply company) makes this statement:
"Shelf life is 12-18 months if stored in a cool, dry location. Franklin Liquid Hide Glue includes an expiration date on the bottle, because it can progressively lose its ability to dry hard, and this change is not visually obvious."
That all said, it's not a big deal to run a hot pot.
Some informational reading:
An in-depth study of some of the differences:
A Study of The Properties of Commercial Liquid Hide Glue and Traditional Hot Hide Glue in Response to Changes in Relative Humidity and Temperature:
HTH
Leif
Re: Hide glue
Dan Donaldson
>The liquid won't give the fast tack that you can get with the hot stuff and it is difficult to do "rubbed joints" with it. I don't know if you could hammer veneer with the liquid or not.
Re: Hide glue
Adam Cherubini
>Why use hot hide other cold (or other glues)
1) the grab allows you to put something together (or repair something) and continue (gently) working with it. Clamps are unnecceasry and probably unhelpful. If you've got a whole day to work, you can put in a whole day's work woodworking, not clamping and waiting.
2) Easy clean up and finishing (may be the same with hot or cold)
3) gap filling properties
I talk about hide glue enthusiastically only because there seems to be a prejudice against it. People say the same things about hide glue as they do about people from NJ (smells bad, weak, doesn't work etc). If you don't find its benefits beneficial, I don't think you're missing out. But you should try it. You can microwave it, you don't need a copper pot. And like people from NJ, the whole glue pot thing isn't all that bad afterall. Its not quite as messy as some people say and really not that difficult to work with. YA GOT THAT SNAPPA HEAD?
Adam
Re: Hide glue
Dean J in MN
>Why hot glue?
I'll echo what others have said -- the quick grab, ability to make rubbed joints top the list for me. No need for a wall of clamps.
As for copper pot, mess and brush. No need for a copper pot, I use a cheap little crock pot (~$10.00 new) and make my glue in baby food jars. There is no extra mess, and you need a brush with cold glue, how do you spread it otherwise?
Hot glue is easy to deal with, I think some people over complicate its use. I'm pretty sure the old guys didn't have fancy thermocontrolled pots, they just had the pot up on the stove, seems to have worked. My little crock pot works well for me.
All of that said -- I still have liquid hide glue around for the times I can't get things together fast enough. Working alone does have its disadvantages. (You can add liquid hide to your hot hide and lengthen its open time.)
-Dean
Example *LINK*
Wiley Horne--Glendora, CA
>Hello McKay,
I'm a fairly recent convert to hide glue, and certainly not an expert.
You asked 'why have a mess, when you can squeeze hide glue out of a bottle?' For me, it's the fast tack, as brought out by others. And when I say 'fast tack', it's not that I'm in such a big hurry-- it's that some operations require fast tack in order to work.
Attached is an example: two banding patterns made up using (1) a couple of gouges, (2) a cutting gauge, and (3) hide glue. No clamps were used, or could be used in this operation--a point Adam made. It's all finger clamped.
Whatcha do is rip your base veneer to width using the cutting gauge--in my case, maple was the base. Then take a gouge and make a bunch of scallops in the base. Then use the same gouge to make a bunch of matching pieces from a contrasting veneer. Then dip the cutout pieces into a pot of hot hide glue (use hemostats), and press them into place with your fingers. Hold for 15 seconds or so, wipe your fingers on a wet rag, and go on to the next one. This all goes very quickly. And the hot glue pulls the piece up tight with the base veneer, as it dries.
If this can't be done quickly, it can't be done at all in any practical amount of time--so the fast tack of the hot hide glue is critical.
What I had to 'get over' to be comfortable with hide glue was the notion that it was A MESS. Once I realized that having glue on my fingers wasn't going to kill me, everything got easy. I'm finding it's actually more user friendly than yellow glue. You just keep a wad of wet paper towels, or a wet rag on hand, and wipe your fingers more or less clean as you go, so you don't pick up random shavings and stuff. For application, you can use a brush, but you can also just use a stick like a spatula, and sometimes I pour it into a slot using a stainless measuring cup.
Leif recently told about how to make up the glue in plastic bottles, which is really a great idea for making application easy.
You get fast handling with the hot glue. I also like the easy cleanup--just scrape it off when it's still at the jello stage--but you probably get that with the liquid glue also. I also like the way that the hot glue pulls everything together tight as it dries--maybe you get that with the liquid also.
Re: Hide glue
William Duffield, on the Cohansey
>If all these good arguments have convinced you that you need to start using hot hide glue, just don't throw away your bottle of liquid hide glue. It still has some good uses as well. I like it best for resticking old venner that has come loose on old furniture. You don't have to remove and reinstall the veneer. A little LHG under the loose edge wicks underneath. Then, all you need to do is clamp or tape it down until tomorrow, and it's fixed.
If you think hide glue is a mess, you haven't tried to get Gorilla glue off your fingers, or tried to scrape or cut a foamout out of an inside corner of a joint.
Re: Hide glue
Todd Stock
>I'll use the liquid for a quick glue size, but never for anything I want to see stay stuck. Liguid hide has little initial tack, is weaker, and tends to creep.
Hot hide glue is pretty easy - mix it up, heat when the water is all absorbed, then let it gel, chill, cut into little cubes, and heat them up as you need them. Another option is to pick up 8 - 1 oz plastic bottles and fill with glue. Pop them in the water bath when you need them; other wise, keep in the fridge.
I'm still up in the air as to which is better for guitars, but I'm leaning towards HHG for stuff like braces and linings and LMI instrument makers glue or Titebond I for stuff which requires a long open time.
The standard Hold-Heet aluminum-lined glue pot is nice, but overkill when a $12 Rival hot water pot will keep both glue and lacquer warm (lacquer at 140 degrees flows nicely). FYI - the best price I've seen on the Hold-Heet pots is Int'l Luthier Supply. The Rival pot is available at Walmart.
Re: Hide glue
Tom Price
>Well... I hear what you're saying but here's where I appreciate more modern chemistry and the different flavors of Titebond glue. Just like I can't really get on board with the Roubo bench, I like my end vise (with leather-lined jaws) and shoulder vise combo too much. Maybe I'm still more or less rooted in the 20th century (notice I didn't say 21st) because I also use my bench and shop for household maintenance and repair, not just woodworking. Love shellac and holdfasts but messing around with having to heat up glue every time I want to use it? Hmmm...
- Tom
another source fwiw
johnjesseph
>I see hold-heets on e-bay once in a while, seem to go for about half of retail or so. Can't see how it would wear out, at least not the copper ones- mine is pretty old and seems fine... Caveat Emptor.
Re: another source fwiw
Todd Stock
>The Hold-Heets do last forever, while the Rivals self-destruct based on some unknown schedule (I had one that lasted all of two weeks, which was returned for the current item that is on it's second year). Some folks have seen the Rival run hot for a few hours when new, then steady out at the desired temp, but mine went right to 145 deg F and parked there.
The Hold-Heets show up on the Bay new as well - normally for $20 more than International gets - again, buyer beware. The used pots are a good deal, as they really don't have anything internal that is not industrial weight/quality.
Re: Hide glue
Adam Cherubini
>Hi Tom!
Yeah I like tite bond too and use it frequently. I can see how if you are puttering or repairing misc things around the house, why one would be reluctant to heat up the glue. When i start a piece of furniture, I heat up the glue and keep it going pretty much every day of that project. In that situation, its really helpful. You're right though. Its not a panacea.
Adam
Re: another source fwiw
johnjesseph
>I just looked at completed auctions and saw two copper hold-heets, one 49 bucks, one 90- someone maybe went nuts and overpaid a little, still cheaper than new.
I also saw this, eBay item 5633805782. I figure this would do this same as Todd's Rival, who knows.
My mini-setup when I only need a bit: small plastic condiment cup to hold glue, small glazed ceramic flower pot used as water bath, on an electric drink warmer I got as a Christmas gift. I microwave the glue several seconds to jumpstart it...
Re: Hide glue - try liquid fish glue... *LINK*
John Aniano in NJ...
>McKay,
I too like the ease of using liquid hide glue. However, as I've said here before, I like liquid fish glue better than the Franklin product. It does take time to dry; it has very good tack and seems to be quite strong.
Fish glue in general, is supposed to be much stronger than hide glue (so I'm told...).
Kremer Pigments sells this stuff and I like it very much. (no affiliation...)
Over and out,
At times it's essential
Ron in Kokomo
>If you are working on complicated glue ups that are difficult to clamp. often hot hide glue will work like a champ with no clamps needed. Just put the joint together and hold for a few seconds and set aside to dry. I was making a Maloof type table with curved legs that were put together at weird angles,. Hot hide glue saved the day.
I like it for veneering tops on boxes too
Ron
Re: another source fwiw
Todd Stock
>Lowest I've seen for a new pot is $86, with $32 for an extra liner. Highest was Woodcraft, at $105 and close to $50 for an extra liner.
Re: Hide glue
Dick Schafer
>Been using both for several years, every once-in-awhile I have to try something else and come back to the hide glue.
Depending on what I am trying to accomplish, I may use hot or bottle, the bottle give a longer work time.
If you're looking for a glue pot, go to Wally World and purchase the small 1 qt. metal crock pot that is tefloned. Cost $8.95 and works like a champ.
Clarification About Using Clamps
Tom Colligan, Peoria
>Don't you still need to use clamps when using hot hide glue? Tia,
Re: Clarification About Using Clamps
Dean J in MN
>In many cases, no you do not need clamps -- hide glue "sucks" tight as it dries. Rub the joint until it grabs and set aside.