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Japanese bench chisels. *LINK*

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Japanese bench chisels. *LINK*

#1

Japanese bench chisels. *LINK*

Bob Dodge

>Yesterday, I picked up a pair of Japanese bench chisels from "Japan Woodworker". They're the inexpensive "house-brand". Blades are a blend of soft and hard high carbon steel, hardened to rockwell 62-63. Double hooped Japanese red oak handles (Akagashi). Item "C" in the included link.

I was particularly struck by the feel and balance of these chisels. Seems to me, they'd be ideal for chopping dovetails, since I can grip the blade low between my thumb and fingers, yet no sign of "top-heaviness". Great control.

I'm wondering if anyone has experience with these particular chisels, and would appreciate any comments you may have. I'd like to try some of the more expensive models as well, and was wondering exactly what the additional cash buys you? For example, the blue-steel chisels are quite expensive, yet they have roughly the same hardness rating as the inexpensive chisels. Might the cheaper models be more prone to blade chipping?

As is, these are already very sharp, and I have yet to hone them. Would the white steel or blue steel versions (Rockwell 64), allow a sharper edge? They claim the longest possible edge retention. Just how much difference can there possibly be between Rockwell 62-63, and Rockwell 64?

Thanks, Bob


http://japanwoodworkeronline.com/041203_jww_site/0013.htm

Re: Japanese bench chisels. *LINK*

#2

Hardness, or how hard is hard?

Jim Reed @ Tallahassee

>MY OPINION--Formed through many hours of hardness testing.--

The hardness numbers published are the manufacturing spec. Your numbers may vary depending on the quality of that process. Measuring hardness is not *exact* like measuring inches or volts, so the numbers are coarse. All of this means that you have no assurance of difference between RC60-62 or RC64 by the time you get the product in your hand. Just know that they will be harder than hardware store chisels, which are mostly RC 50s.

Re: Japanese bench chisels. *LINK*

#3

Re: Hardness, or how hard is hard?

Roy Girolami

>Bob, I have several chisels I bought from the Japan Woodworker. None are of the Blue steel type, because I thought they were too expensive. All the chisels I use from the Japan Woodworker hold an edge for a very long time but you do have to worry about chipping the edge on some hardwoods. I would recommend going to 25 degrees on the bevel and then honing. FWW had an article on chisels in 1999 that went over your concerns and as far as I can recall, didn't find a lot of difference in blue steel and any other Japanese chisels.

Roy Girolami

Apex, NC

Re: Japanese bench chisels. *LINK*

#4

There's a big difference...

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>I have their DT chisels and have had some problems with chipping them. I’ve raised the bevel angle a few degrees and that’s seemed to help. These are white steel chisels. I’d never buy them again.

I’d stay away from white steel chisels myself; they seem more prone to chipping.

My Japanese mortise chisels are blue steel and I can tell a major difference between the two types of steel.

Re: Japanese bench chisels. *LINK*

#5

Re: Japanese bench chisels.

Arw01

>I have the 1/2" and the 1/8" models. The 1/2" back was SERIOUSLY out of flat, and took HOURS to fix...

They are sharp, and hold an edge pretty well. I had some experience with Lie-Nielson recently in Canada and I would prefer the LN's, but the cost is prohibitive in comparison.

I also bought a Matshusmura mortise chisel that is seriously out of flat on the back, I sent pictures and TWO emails to Japanwoodworker about returning it, but no response.

Not sure what I will do with it since it was $50+ dollars and it's gonna take bloody forever to fix it.

Alan

Re: Japanese bench chisels. *LINK*

#6

They aint supposed to be flat

Ron in Kokomo

>Except right at the cutting edge

Re: Japanese bench chisels. *LINK*

#7

hardness vs. resistance to abrasion

Frank D. in Montreal

>I'M no expert, but

Hardness isn't always a good indication of resistance to abrasion; they are 2 different characteristics, even though they often go together. If you look at 2 different steels, like O1 and A2, they can have the same hardness but not resist wear equally well. The same is true of identical steel types (that have the same name, like "White Steel") that come from different sources. Similarly, blue steel is said to resist wear better than white steel at the same level of hardness.

From what I understand the Japanese have a tendency to overharden their blades a little; they figure it's easier to take away hardness than to put it back into the steel. There are various ways of doing drawing temper just a little, so I've heard or read, like leave a chisel or blade out in the sun for a day, or dragging a blade very quickly and repeatedly along a board to heat it up a little. I've never tried any of these. Sometimes just using the chisel makes it better. Often the tempering process leaves steel harder on the surface also, so a few sharpenings can reduce chipping too.

FWIW

Re: Japanese bench chisels. *LINK*

#8

Re: hardness vs. resistance to abrasion

Todd Hughes

>In order to affect the temper of a chisel [or any other steel tool] you are going have to raise the temperture up to around 300 deg. at least. So unless you live on Venus ain't going to do much laying your chisels out in the sun except maybe tempt your neighbors...Boy, you would have to rub that chisel pretty fast to get it that hot too.....Todd

Re: Japanese bench chisels. *LINK*

#9

Mettalurgy manifesto

Adam Cherubini

>Would the white steel or blue steel versions (Rockwell 64), allow a sharper edge? They claim the longest possible edge retention. Just how much difference can there possibly be between Rockwell 62-63, and Rockwell 64?

Sometimes we like to BS about this sort of thing. Here's my 2 bit guess:

I think sharpness has to do with grain size, maybe impurities or bond strength. Pretty sure Rockwell hardness measures the matrix more than the hardness of the crystals. So I think you could get a great edge on hard or soft steels.

Keeping an edge is a different question. Some guys (maybe most) think a chisel should be tough (resilient) to maintain its edge. I think that's bunk. I think it means when a chisel is struck its edge goes elastic. Instead I think the edge either goes plastic (chisel too soft) or it breaks (chisel too hard). Anecdotally, I'm of the opinion that hard chisels that can take an edge are good chisels and retain their edges.

As for abrasion resistance, that makes a chisel hard to sharpen and may not be advantageous for the sort of things we do with firmers. Turning chisels might benefit from this sort of steel - ask Bill Tindall.

I don't use japanese chisels because I don't like their patterns, but I think any chisel with high hardness (over 60) and a fine grain is a good chisel. Todd always suggests he doesn't care for japanese chisel snake oil marketing, but I seem to think they are very similar to both his chisels and the early 19th century stuff I use. I wish somebody was banging out traditional English patterns in W-1 similar to the japanese stuff.

Adam

Re: Japanese bench chisels. *LINK*

#10

Re: hardness vs. resistance to abrasion

Frank D. in Montreal

>Good point Todd,

I've seen both these methods mentioned in books on Japanese woodworking tools, I think Odate was one (although he did say some people leave them in the sun on a tin roof). AS I said though, never tried 'em.

What do you think about "work hardening" ? The theory goes that after using blades or chisels after a while the steel gets tougher (temper gets drawn, they are less brittle) because of the heat generated by pounding with a mallet or planing. I've read this from various sources including Charlesworth somewhere. It doesn't really make sense as you pointed out if you consider the temps necessary to draw temper, but I've read it more than once.

Re: Japanese bench chisels. *LINK*

#11

Re: They aint supposed to be flat

Arw01

>when you lay a chisel onto a surface to pair, they aren't supposed to curve!

from behind the hollow to the cutting edge, there is an arc in all my japanese chisels, so they steer in directions depending on where they register..

Mine was so far out of flat, I had to lap it until the hollow was gone! There is no guarantee you won't get a convex back, and where does the chisel decide to go then?

Re: Japanese bench chisels. *LINK*

#12

I think you made a mistake

Adam Cherubini

>That curve may have been there on purpose to help you pare. Old framing chisels are curved like that sometimes. It gets the handle up and gives you control over the depth of the cut. Laid flat the chisel is going to submarine and make a big splinter. The only advantage in a straight backed chisel is when paring end grain like a tenon shoulder and that's debatable.

I'd try one as they are and see if you can't develop a technique that allows you to use that rounded back.

We talk about that flat down paring technique here- its fine if it work for you, but its certainly not the only way and may well not be the best.

adam

Re: Japanese bench chisels. *LINK*

#13

Indeed!

bill tindall

>hardness is a property of the steel matrix and specifically it is measured by resistance to penetration. A hard steel resists deforming, but often with a trade-off of less toughness. For chisles, hardness and toughness are the most important property. A steel that can be made hard and tough, such as 3V (gotta get that plug in here) will resist deforming(crumbling) and chipping in use. Abrasion resistance would seem of secondary importance for a smacking chisel (ie dovetail, mortise), or ever a pareing chisel.

A brittle smacking chisel wears by breaking bits from the edge. I'll try to find a PIC as it has been some time since I posted these. I certainly have chipped my Japanese chisels. I regard them nice for pareing as I like the shape for this task, but I don't like to beat on them. I have the 3V's for that.

In a post to follow soon there will be a PIC of a 3V chisel in a Japanese shape I made just for pareing.

Re: Japanese bench chisels. *LINK*

#14

Re: hardness vs. resistance to abrasion

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>To a certain extent, it does make sense. Heat is not conducted instantaneously through the steel. Right out at the edge, there is a lot more surface area for the same volume of steel. Frictional heating is related to the surface area, while disipation of the heat via conduction is related to the volume. (Of course, heat is also dissipated via radiation. Heat is also carried off through whatever it is you are cutting, or whatever abrasive you are using to sharpen. But, all else being equal...) Therefore, the edge would reach a higher temperature due to short term frictional heating. For example, when grinding a new edge using a dry wheel, we often find that everything seems to be going fine, until we get right to the end of the process, and then the edge turns blue. Double Crud!

Re: Japanese bench chisels. *LINK*

#15

Re: Metallurgy manifesto from a metallurgist *LINK*

Andrew F in Australia

>Hi Adam.

I use an old Marples 1” firmer from around the turn of the century – it’s a good chisel I support your comments on this.

Now to the metallurgical part of the discussion.

There is a difference between RC62/63 and 64. Basically, Rockwell is a scale that determines resistance to penetration of a (from memory) a **hard** steel ball, otherwise it's a diamond pyramid, into a freshly polished surface of the steel.

It's exponential, so there's (guessing once again at numbers as I don't have time or calculator close by) about 3-5% difference between the two in hardness.

The 'toughness' we refer to here with chisels is the energy able to be absorbed by the chisel without deformation (= resilience.)

The dictionary definition of toughness (see linked on-line materials dictionary below) is not a resistance to bending, as much as area under the stress strain curve as you rip the chisel in half. As you point out, once an edge is bent, it's useless. But not as useless as if you maximise the dictionary definition of toughness and destructively test your chisel.

Going to my Materials Engineering/Metallurgy trade background, every time you use any edge tool and lever off it, it deforms (like a leaf spring.) Once again, like a leaf spring, you want the chisel to return to its original shape. This it termed elasticity. The point at which, after being stretched/bent, it ceases to return to its original shape is termed the elastic limit or yield strain.

As the steel is stretched/bent, it reacts and tries to return to its original shape. The amount of force required to do this (standardised to a per-area unit basis) is called stress.

At the elastic limit, the stress is called the yield stress.

The area under the yield stress/strain curve for steel is pretty close to a triangle, so resilience is basically the area under the stress/strain curve where no damage occurs, and is roughly proportional to yield stress times yield strain.

As well, the ratio between yield stress and yield strain is constant in steel, regardless of whether you've got a fully hardened steel or a fully annealed (soft) one (termed Young's modulus). So, a steel with a yield stress of 500MPa will stretch twice as far to get to its elastic limit as a steel with a yield stress of 250MPa.

In a practical sense, as you get the steel harder, the amount of work it takes before deformation increases, as well as the distance you can bend/stretch it before breaking also increases. This is how you control the resilience of the steel.

The alloys used in modern tool steel create precipitates that are ceramic (such as Chromium, Tungsten and Vanadium Carbides, and very hard (approx 78 - 85HRC from memory.) As well as standard heat treatment of steel (more later) these precipitates create a hard edge when they are successfully embedded in the edge or near it. They do this by resisting deformation as well as pinning the softer steel edge, preventing it somewhat from moving.

The steel structure surrounding these carbide grains consists of fine ‘grains’ of pearlite (= interspersed layers of iron carbide and iron) as well as fine grains of surplus iron that weren’t needed to make the pearlite.

Tool steels are designed for applications where the material they're working is sliding across the surface, wearing it down this way. In these situations, the precipitates embedded in the surface stop the tool steel from wearing away.

***********************************************************

Having said this, I use M2 plane blades - they take a beating and last fairly well between sharpening (and on our silica rich timbers, the edge used to blunt after about 2 plane strokes)

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The downside of using modern steel is that the precipitates get too large when poorly heat treated or at high alloy content.

Brittle ceramic at large sizes = fracture = edge failure.

At small precipitate sizes, when they do fracture, it's at a level where they don't impair the appearance of the finished surface.

********************************************************************

Conclusion 1: You're probably looking for a resilient chisel, not a tough one.

To get this, you need steel that has a fair amount of elastic limit and a proportionally fairly high yield stress.

The way you get this is small grain size, low impurity and control over the size of precipitates/carbides in the steel to maximise resilience of the steel.

********************************************************************

PART 2: Japanese steels and old tool steel

These steels are essentially alloys of carbon and iron. The iron are stacked at an atomic level like billiard balls – At temperatures above 800C the carbon atoms fit neatly in the holes between the iron atoms and stop the layers of iron atoms from sliding easily over each other. At room temperature, some of this carbon remains in solution. This is what gives low carbon steel its resistance to deformation (= hardness.)

The carbon atoms also stop the steel from changing form easily in heat treatment, which results in the hardenability of steel. When quenched from 1500F (820C), the iron can’t form is stable phases as easily. If it’s prevented from forming the stable phases (iron and iron carbide) then it forms a hard phase (martensite). When heat treated (tempered), the martensite turns into very fine layers of iron and iron carbide (= pearlite grains), as well as fine grains of iron.

These fine layers/grain structure give the steel resistance to deformation, which means that it can bend a fair bit and return to original shape, which also gives the steel its hardness. This is the classic hardened structure you get with W1/W2 steel.

Alloys of about 0.2% Carbon are fairly hard to heat treat (ie: they don’t form the hard phase), alloys of about 0.4-0.6% C are fairly easy to heat treat, alloys of about 0.8%C produce all pearlite. W1 is a 0.8%C alloy, W2 is a 0.8%C alloy with a little bit of vanadium added to produce some harder Vanadium Carbide grains as well.

The Japanese steels are a variation on this theme – they contain layers of pure iron as well as layers of carbides, all very fine grain size. The pure iron gives a cushioning layer between each layer of hard carbide, something similar to the modern tool steels, where the iron/carbon matrix cushions the carbide grains.

Japanese steels get the flexibility and high hardness by having the hard layers cushioned by ‘springs’ of softer layers. The hard layers are very hard, which allows the steel to reach an average 62-65HRC or so. The more times the steel is folded on itself, the finer the grain structure and the better the resilience.

Use of an old anchor that survived without rusting in a sea environment for 200 years is part fact as well as fiction – it means that the iron was fairly pure to start with. Impure iron would have rusted away.

***************************************************************

Conclusion 2:

There is some science behind the manufacture of Japanese steel, but there’s also a fair bit of marketing hype.

The different internal structure of Japanese chisels is what gives the high hardness and elastic limit.

Japanese steel and old tool steel both are basic iron/carbon steels. When they’re very fine grained, they should both hold an edge equally and work the same. Just that the Japanese chisels will take a bit more of a beating before failure.

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This is more of a manifesto than I planned to write. And it's still fairly basic.

Any questions, please feel free to ask

Andrew


Glossary

Re: Japanese bench chisels. *LINK*

#16

Work hardening

Andrew F in Australia

>Is when the steel is bent and deforms slightly - it changes internal structure because of the permanent bend and eventually gets so hard it snaps - practical demo = unfold a paper clip and bend the steel back and forth.

Cheers,

Andrew

Re: Japanese bench chisels. *LINK*

#17

I missed one critical part

Andrew F in Australia

>Forgot to say in the section where I was talking about how a harder steel is better, that things can obviously be too brittle.

At this point, the stress will get to the breaking point of the ceramic/internal precipitates and causes chipping/fracture/failure.

You need to ensure that the microstructure of the steel has some give in it - and produce fine grain size as well, to get a good chisel.

Overtempering is when you get the chisel too hot or hold it at the correct temp for too long. In this case, the grain structure becomes coarser and you lose hardness/toughness. The chisel then bends/deforms more easily.

Cheers,

Andrew

(who's probably missed other things as well but has also been spending time with three 7-year olds on school holidays playing in the house for the last few hours)

Re: Japanese bench chisels. *LINK*

#18

Re: Metallurgy manifesto from a metallurgist *LINK*

Miles

>Andrew, have you looked at any of the powder metallurgy steels in comparison to those you have just described? Seems to me that the PM process allows much higher alloying levels whilst preventing the growth of the large carbides that can make conventional alloy and stainless steels unsuitable.

I'm trying to find someone who'll help me make some test chisels from RWL-34, a PM steel usually used for knives. It's made by the same people who make modern Damascus, but is a non-layered material. It will be very interesting to see how it behaves as far as wear resistance goes (edge failure one way or the other).

I have a fair collection of chisels, some are great, one or two have proved useless. A modern Bahco 424 25mm does very well, though the blade is a bit thick - seems to be tough and sharpens nicely. Not so taken with a 10mm Robert Sorby (new-ish) also too thick but a bit soft. Emotionally, I prefer old ones - and have collected several old Isaac Sorby, firmer and bevelled, these are generally nice tools, that I keep turning to. I am told that bevelled chisels were left a little harder than firmers, as they were not struck as often. I'm still debating about LN's A2 offerings, but I have a small LN rabbet plane with an A2 blade and it *does* stay sharp a long time. Not sure about the socket design - doesn't it make them rather heavy?

Back to the thread... Modern metallurgy ought to be able to run rings around antique technology, if only on account of precise control of processes and the ability to analyse what is going on and act accordingly. It may be that the best possible steel is indeed a plain high carbon one - but it seems unlikely! I'm a scientist, but not a metallurgist, and I think there is a great deal of research work that has not been exploited yet in making hand tool materials - unlike machine tools where hard coatings and so on have completely changed the performance and economics of many processes. If you scan some of the journals in this area, you get some sense of just how amazing a subject it is and how many possibilities there are. I look forward to the day when a really sophisticated steel, crafted by years of study and experiment, is joined with a 'perfect' traditional wooden handle to make a tool that even Adam would crave.... :-)

Sorry this is a bit long - but I've enjoyed lurking and reading your various discussions and sometimes amused teasing of each other, so I hope someone finds this interesting too.

Miles (Cambridge, England)


http://www.damasteel.biz/steelgrades.html

Re: Japanese bench chisels. *LINK*

#19

PM Steel for Woodworking Tools

Steve Elliott

>I'm not familiar with RWL-34, but I've been making plane blades from a powder metallurgy alloy called CPM 3V. It has about 3% vanadium which gives it very good abrasion resistance, and it's less brittle than most PM steels. It grinds better than M2 high speed steel but final honing must be done using diamond to achieve a truly sharp edge.

I've done wear comparison tests of blades made from high carbon steel, A2, and 3V. They all make good blades, but as the wear resistance goes up, ease of sharpening goes down.

More information than you probably want is available on my website at infillplane.com.Follow the link to Comparison Tests of Plane Blades.

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