Query for Planing Purists

Re: Query for Planing Purists

john jesseph

>Nothing wrong with a bit of sandpaper here and there. I am a big fan of scrapers, that would work too. Abrasives were used historically, just not in sheets from 3M...

Re: Query for Planing Purists

Norman (Ottawa, Ont.)

>Perhaps a light pass with a scraper would do it..

I tend to use a hand scrpaer for surfaces which cannot

be handplaned easily.

Or even a light pass ith 400 grit sandpaper.

Looks like you're on the right track.

Do we get to see a picture of the cabinet?

Norman

Re: I use sandpaper for finishing

Darrell in Oakville

>Bill,

I use sandpaper for finishing, not for stock removal.

A plane or scraper is much faster then sanding with coarse paper and then having to work through the grits to get to a smooth surface. I plane and scrape to get to a smooth surface, and then all I need to do is some light hand sanding with a fine grit to prep the wood for finishing. In some cases I don't sand at all, because either the planing and/or scraping left a perfect surface, or the surface isn't one that *needs* perfection.

Darrell

Wood Hoarder, Blade Sharpener, and Occasional Tool User

Re: Query for Planing Purists

Warren in Lancaster, PA

>Generally you want to smooth plane ("clean") the surfaces as late in the process as possible. When it is time to glue up you think about what parts will no longer be accessible and give them a light planing. A typical scheme is dimension stock, then joinery, then smoothing, gluing, and finishing. Accessible parts can be cleaned just before finishing. I think the joint making phase is hardest on the surfaces so save your smoothing until the joints are complete. The smoothing should remove negligible material.

My breakthorough is coming from a power tool!Oops!

HC Sakman

>..which is 6 or 8 inch HSS jointer or planer blades. First Sophie intruduce me to this and it works awesome. Just knock off the sharp corners and keep the regular sharpening geometry. No need for hooks and carbide hook burnishers etc... Try it, it's unbelievably convenient and works very, very well without the need to resharpen this "scraper" often!

Chico...

Same thing goes for....

HC Sakman

>Hand plane blades and chisels equally well. Jointer and planer blades need to go to a sharpening service (due to the hardness of HSS) but they last a loooong looooong time.

Chico...

PS:I've got sick and tired of re-hooking scrapers. They simply don't last. 25 or 30 degree bevel works well and provides better control IMO. (It works in wider range of angles.)

Re: Query for Planing Purists

Jim in Burlington On

>I read a article on David Charlesworth and he sands his work in a quite demanding fashion. Using a vaccum and fine paper with a special kind of block that he made. While small objects like table tops are easily handplaned for me anything involving assembly it way out of my league somewhere it's going to get hit with a rubber hammer or deadblow hammer.

Re: Query for Planing Purists

Jack Guzman from Maine

>Bill,

I'm a carpenter.This hand tool stuff is relatively new to me.I hate sanding.I hate the dust and the tediousness of it.I built a small end table and never touched it with sandpaper.When I attached the top I set it on a bench to screw it down.The table top was directly under a light and at eye level.When I happened to look across the top I was amazed at the surface.No finish,this piece of walnut shone like glass.Sandpaper would have muddied it.I avoid sandpaper wherever I can now. I'll use it when I have to but it's nice to know it's not necessary.I'm still working on perfecting my planing experience and I'll be happy if I never use a piece of sandpaper again.(My ROS hasn't been used in almost 3 years).---Jack

Planin', scrapin', rubbin', burnishin'...

David Barnett - Venice, Florida

>It all depends on the wood and what you want. Some wood won't scrape. And walnut, for example, often benefits from iterations of wetting, drying, and a brisk ripping loose of the now-extended fibers with wool; steel, bronze, synthetic, or an old knit hiking sock (gunstock finisher tip). For old methods there's rubbing with silica bearing reeds & grasses, shagreen (which actually refers to the rump hide of the wild ass - great for stropping, btw - rather than stingray or shark, which are actually nominal 'shagreen' substitutes), various flaxen cloths, and so on. These transition to papers and hard felts neat, or with compounds, usually earthen, such as tripoli. Then you have hard burnishers; agates, jaspers, hematite, polished metal, very hard woods, and the list goes on. Get the wood hot enough just at the surface and you can harden and seal it by melting the outermost cellulose fibers (best for small areas such as edges).

As for HSS scrapers, yeah, Chico's tip is great if you have machine knife from the Dark Side. If not, you can get something called a 'cut off' tool bit from Enco (about 5 or 6 USD) that's about 6" long, 3/32" thick, and maybe 5/8" high. I'd score and snap this (don't try this unless you already know how) so you'd get a 4" length and a 1 1/2" or 2" scraper. You can tape or grind one long edge to make it safe enough to grip with fingers, or much better, kerf a piece of wood for a handle. The square (actually 5-deg. beveled) edge will work plenty well - but don't burnish the arris! Harbor Freight sells a set of HSS tool bits for 2.99 US that has an unbeveled 4 1/2" x 1/2" x 1/16" cut off bar and four other short pieces of HSS that make good micro lathe tools. Kind of narrow, but it'll work.

And there's no shame in sanding! Depends on the wood and what you're after, of course, but I often end by running through a few grades of those superb 3M polishing papers (400 to 8000 grit). And I also like a wet-sanded (320 grit and oil) on some woods, such as canarywood, sometimes followed by a final rubdown with the 3M papers.

wild ass stropping?

john jesseph

>I have tried almost all sharpening techniques, but I may pass on that one...

You have to make sure it's asleep first

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

>and never stroke toward the cutting edge, or you'll nick it.

You need to be careful, they are mean

Dan Donaldson

>Check this one out;-)

WHOA, NELLIE!

Bruce, a MN Galoot

>

I'm convinced

Neal (San Jose)

>I'll stick to stropping on leather that's already off the a... um, animal.

Re: Query for Planing Purists

Frank D. in Montreal

>I remember a few of us discussed this not long ago. I just plane, assemble and bang it up a little (not to mention get it dirty with glue on my fingers) then a thorough but light sanding with 220 grit for most woods.

I was supposed to do a test to see the differrence between a planed and sanded surface with finish...it's still on my roundtuit.

Re: Query for Planing Purists

Dan Clermont in Burnaby

>Hi Bill,

I hate sanding and avoid it as much as possible. I always prep my surface with a smoothing plane. After the glue up I will then access whether or not it needs a light pass with paper.

If you prep your blade properly you won't need to sand. Also have to be careful with glue and it sometimes helps to oil of finish the project before assembly

I always start at 220 grit or higher if needed

Can't stand the noise, dust and time it takes to start sanding at 80 or 100 grit.

Dan Clermont

Finishing caution

Ed Mulligan, Cape Cod

>Bill -

My usual sequence is to hand plane to remove machine marks, then scrape to remove hand plane marks, tearout etc, then sand. My goal is a flat, smooth, tear-out free surface that will accept stains and film finishes evenly.

When staining is part of the finishing sequence it is important that all show surfaces are treated the same so stain is accepted uniformly. If one surface is sanded, they must all be sanded with the same grit sequence. If a bit of scraping is needed to remove tearout on one surface, all surfaces need to be scraped.

Ed

Scuff marks?

Adam Cherubini

>Scuff marks? What is this scuff marks you speak of?

Seriously, I have no idea what you are talking about. I can say two upcoming PW articles I'm working on reference overhead fluorescent lighting and how unacceptable and disadvantageous it is for hand work. The only marks I ever encounter are those left when I stop planing in the middle of a surface. Otherwise, once planed, you do have to be careful of primary surfaces.

On the other hand your keen and analytical eye may be detecting "surface imperfections" that would have been acceptable 250 years ago I'm unconvinced of the widespread use of abrasives in early shops. Extant pieces are of no help since the surfaces that would have been candidates for abrasive use have all been meddled with.

In my opinion, purism, despite having a negative connotation in the modern lexicon, is the answer to such questions. Furthermore, and maybe I should be ashamed to admit this, I'm suspicious of hypotheses from people who aren't purists. This is just to say two things- 1) I appreciate your word choice, Bill 2) I think you have to just try it again before looking for answers elsewhere. This has been my approach, born in frugality, and nurtured in stubborness. Knowing you, I think you'll find a way to make it work for yourself.

Adam

suspicious?

john jesseph

>"I'm suspicious of hypotheses from people who aren't purists"

Not sure I am interpreting you correctly. Could you please explain?

Purism?

David Barnett - Venice, Florida

>Yeah, Adam...

What exactly do you mean by "purism"? Do you mean by it dedication to purely historical tools, methods and materials? In other words "historical authenticity"? Does your purism support or refute a pragmatic eclecticism? Do you infer an unfocused approach to craft? I'm not being testy. I'm dead serious. It's an interesting question and I wrestle with it continuously.

For example, outside woodworking, in my attempts at replicating a certain texture on my pate de verre pieces, where powdered glass frits are carefully packed in layers along mould walls during multiple firings, I keep considering incorporating asbestos into the investment mixture as Gabriel Argy-Rousseau did, producing these silky elusive finishes. I've tried other refractory fibers, such as certain talcs, but I keep coming back to the asbestos question. Not for historical authenticity, mind you, but to achieve that superb silky texture on my glass castings. For so proposing, I've been called "purist" by others who find such unsafe practices taboo. As for forming wire in the ancient manner, I draw instead of beat and roll. I've piddled with the latter, fusing with a blowpipe over charcoal (many advantages) instead of a jeweler's torch. I'm not sure what I learned beyond just how damned hard it is to roll wire as it was done several thousand years ago. In this sense, being called "purist" is less perjorative than before, and implies more an investigative (albeit quirky) curiosity than intractable intransigence.

As for early abrasives for woodworking, I'd agree from what little I've tried; beating with phragmites, rubbing with hard-finished hides, and so on, that early shops would eschew such practices as largely a waste of time and effort. Of course, I might be doing everything wrong. The only practice I'm fairly confident of is burnishing, which can yield nice results.

Re: Purism?

john jesseph

>I agree that your questions are interesting. I am more concerned about the implication that a person's method of work invalidates their informed opinion.

As an aside, perhaps the word revivalist is more fitting than purist in this context...

Scuff marks defined

bill tindall

>Once planed, if this surface is rubbed by something, it looks different. It might get rubbed during handIing or rubbed by a clamp, etc. I called the surface "scuffed", while others might say burnished. Lets just say "inadvertant handling marks" that may even include smudges. The wood fibers get compressed or scuffed up, or whatever. I don't mean dents. These marks may disapper when the finish goes on. It's the kind of thing that two swipes with 220 grit removes, or makes uniform.

So to repeat the question, if one does not use "two swipes with 220 grit" to remove handling marks before finishing, what is used. And I am not going to believe planing purists do not ever get such things!

Or to word yet another way, to remove any minor blemishes sand paper users will give a piece a light sanding just before applying first coat of finish. What do planing purists do that would be equivalent?

PS I like the hat........

scraper

Jack Guzman from Maine

>A card scraper is great for touching up little imperfections and evening out the surface.The problem with sandpaper touchup is you have to sand the whole area to get it even.A scraper you only scrape the uneven part.---Jack

Re: Purism?

Adam Cherubini

>John,

I get what you're saying. No offense intended. No one can invalidate an opinion, and I've always been an advocate of anonymity here (not in the sense of masking who you are, but maybe what you do) because I don't feel comfortable using credentials to justify points of view. I think every post should be taken at face value. So I'm guessing we're more or less on the same side of this issue.

What I would say is that I've had better luck with the information I've gotten from purists. Don't get me wrong, I listen to everybody, read everybody, but for questions like Bill's say, you have to find some purist who won't use sand paper and ask him or her how they deal with scuff marks. Guys like Norm Abram will tell you how to hold a handsaw or which planes are best, and their answers are practical and sensible. But (like so many of us here) I want the whole story - how to hold the saw, sharpen the saw, use the saw to resaw 12 by stock etc. These are things that reasonable, practical, non-purists never know or do.

I'm not sure I'm explaining this well. If you want to know the whole story on a tool like a saw, plane or chisel, you can't trust the consensus to deliver it. You need the purists.

Adam