Method for M/T and D/T

FANCY HAND PLANES

Adam Cherubini

>1)For M/T, Do you cut to the shoulder and cheek lines right off or do you leave a little wood and pare?

I saw them directly, then fit the joint together. The only time I pare is when I make a mistake sawing.

How often do you use a shoulder plane to true up shoulders and cheeks.Do you use a rabbet plane for clean up.One memeber seems to use a hand router for paring down the cheeks. Can anyone comment on these techniques?

I don't own a shoulder plane. I think shoulder planes were developed for guys working very much larger tenons like entry doors. The other tools are really just compensating for poor saw cuts, right?

2)I use the Franz Klaus method for D/T. I mark and chisel starting with the pins. Do you use a coping saw or chisel?

I've done both but I prefer to chisel out the waste especially on the tail side, where I under cut the line.

Do you leave a little extra and pare or go right to the base line.

You mean when you cope out waste? I'm thinking I leave a little extra in case I make a mistake with my saw, right? But if I could saww accurately I skip that extra step.

I want to know what works and what is fastest with practice.

Others may say "whatever works for you". But this is a no-answer answer. Unless you can defy physics or the space-time continuum, the fastest approach is learning to saw and shooting for winners. When you see Franz Klaus' dovetail side show in person, you are instantly struck by the fact that he can saw straight square pins and tails by eye.

Sawing is the common denominator in all your questions and yet so many of you pour all your money, effort and attention into planes. We should ask Ellis to rename this message board FANCY HAND PLANES.

(I hope you're getting my subtle point here, Bob) It was a good question. Good luck with your sawing! With this off my chest, I'm waiting with baited breath to learn whether the new bevel up shoulder plane is better than the old bevel infill shoulder plane. Anyone?

Adam

P.S. I'm wearing that 'red-man" foam suit (which is also flame prrof) and I've got an empty inbox so come and get me!

Re: Method for M/T and D/T

Warren in Lancaster, PA

>I'm with Adam on the shoulder plane. I've made thousands of tenons with just a saw. If there are problems I use a wide chisel. For a 1x2 joint I spend a little less than 5 minutes on the mortise and the same for the tenon, but I think a beginner should concentrate on accurate cuts and not worry about speed.

For dovetails, I cut the tails first, cut out the waste near the line with a coping saw, and then pare or chop the bottom depending on the wood and dimensions. The cuts made with the dovetail saw can be accurate enough that paring is unnecessary.

Shoulder plane

Jim Reed@Tallahassee

>I normally rough cut tenons using 'lectricity--radial arm saw or bandsaw. Then I use the shoulder plane to fit the joint. I like my joints to fit tight and require heavy fist blows to seat the joint. The reason I do not like one time sawing is that I do not do enough woodworking to be good enough to get anything right the first time. Shoulder planes take off wisps and are very forgiving. I just get close and then start *sneaking up* on the proper fit. Same with dovetails. Good luck with yours.

Re: Method for M/T and D/T

Dean J in MN

>M&T -- I cut right to the line. Early on I bought a shoulder plane because I thought I needed one. It is currently covered dust. In its place is a sharp chisel for the times I can't saw. (I think sawing is kind of a 'Zen' thing, there are days I do well, others I don't).

DT -- I use a chisel to remove waste. I just finished cutting about 80 DT's and I tried a coping saw just to see if I was missing somethign on one set of DTs. I found it was a) slower than chopping, and b) cause me to have ill fitting baselines. I think b) was my chisel technique, I normally use the same method Adam described in his PW article -- Chop and pare, leaving supporting wood on the end of the tail/pin waste. Without the supporting wood I found it difficult to cut the baselines. But, as I said, this is probably due to my technique. It wasn't a time saver because I end up making the same number of chisel cuts to get the last bit of waste off the baseline anyway.

My advise for both M&T and DTs echos others. The "trick" is to learn to saw to a line. Further, choose the correct saw for the job at hand, you need a quick cutting agressive saw to cut tenons in my opinion. My tenon sawing got much better when I started using a larger frame saw rather than a backsaw.

-Dean

Re: Method for M/T and D/T-Dean

chichi

>Dean,

I am learning to use a bowsaw and it is a little tricky but cuts easily. How do I know when the saw is tight enough or is it my technique rather than a low tension saw that causes me to pull to one side?

How do you correct the saw once it starts to wander off line?

Thanks,

Bob

Re: FANCY HAND PLANES

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

>I've also, over the past couple of years, been coming to appreciate the virtues of a well-handled chisel (no, no, I meant used with skill and finesse).

Re: Method for M/T and D/T-Dean

Dean J in MN

>

How do I know when the saw is tight enough or is it my technique rather than a low tension saw that causes me to pull to one side?

Bob --

I tension my saw pretty tight, but I realize that is an ambiguous statement. If you have having issues with the saw tracking I'd look first at your technique, and then the blade's set. The blades I have needed a lot of work. They had way too much set and I changed the rake angles as well. The rake shouldn't be an issue with the saw not cutting straight.

With your blade as is, draw some lines and start cutting. If the saw always drifts one direction it may well be the blade. If it drifts in random direction it may well be your technique. If it is your technique you just need to spend time cutting to lines. Once you get the results repeatable (either a straight cut, or a drift in a single direction) you can figure out if the blade needs work. If it tends to always drift right, you have too much set on that side of the blade. You can stone it off, or carefully unset with a saw set. I'll let the real saw doctors explain more if you have concerns with that step.

How do you correct the saw once it starts to wander off line?

Well, for the most part, you can't. :) Depends on what is going wrong with the cut, but the only way to get things back on track is to get more blade involved. Did you happen to read Adam's article in this month's PW? Laying the blade down is the only way to correct a cut. Twisting or trying to "steer" just makes things worse in my experience. The real trick is to start the cut straight and on the right path, and the only way to do that is to just keep trying.

I have good days, and bad days when it comes to sawing, there are days the saw seems to hug the line like it is on auto-pilot, other days I struggle with every cut.

-Dean

Red Man!!

John Hoffman

>Adam, I just bought a large shoulder plane to get the shoulders of the tennon right on the show side. Maybe I should start sawing more. Anyway I will check in before I shell out more money.

Also I have been in a red man suit a number of times and been beaten with pvc pipe wrapped in pipe insulation and duck tape. Man, is that a good time!!!

Re: FANCY HAND PLANES

John Hoffman

>Adam, are you undercutting with the saw on the shoulder cut? Lets say i do it and monkey up the shoulder on the show side, how should I fix it?

Thanks

JH

Correcting the saw

Warren in Lancaster, PA

>I think its easy to miss the best time for making adjustments with a bow saw. When about half the saw is in the kerf (perhaps 1/2 to 3/4 inch down), you can see how the cut is going and you still have the freedom to lean it gently to one side to straighten your cut. As the saw gets buried in the cut there is less and less freedom to change.

Once the saw is in the cut you can still adjust, but only very gradually. It is tempting to lean hard to one side to quickly get back on track, but this will distort the blade so that it is bowed inside the board and make a mess. A gentle touch works best.

Re: FANCY HAND PLANES

Adam Cherubini

>John,

Sorry this fell of my WC radar screen.

Are you undercutting with the saw on the shoulder cut? Lets say i do it and monkey up the shoulder on the show side, how should I fix it?

When sawing a shoulder I saw right to the line. The trick is just sawing around the board, starting at one corner, then wrapping the saw around as each corner is sawn out. Its not a matter of skill, its a simple technique, easily mastered in an afternoon. (I'm not sure in believe in skill or at least that discussion of it is helpful).

When you screw up using this approach, you may have some extra material on the shoulder next to the tenon. But let's say you did it perfectly. I still pare away/undercut some material adjacent to the tenon to make a better looking fit. That undercut forces the joint at the surface to close first when you draw bore. I recently did this with some very old spruce (30 yrs old or so). The dry fit wasn't stellar, but after the pegs went in, the joint was nearly seamless. It was a trestle work table for the kids. I've never made one before and I was hesistant about its strength. Man that thing is strong.

Adam

Re: Correcting the saw

Adam Cherubini

>I know guys like Warren can do this but I don't recommend this approach. The way I fix wayward cuts is to lay the saw down through the miscut area. Bending the saw sideways can work, but I think its not the best way to go. It doesn't work everywhere and always the way laying the saw down does.

For a bow saw specifically, the lack of torsional stiffness makes this approach even more difficult. I think folks who want their bow saw blades to lock in place, are missing the boat on both bow saws (by removing their greatest asset) and on open saws where this technique can lead to problems.

Let me just say why: Twisting the blade or pushing it one way or the other only effects the portion of the blade between the handle and the board. (the kerf prevents the twist). When the board is thick, the resuilt is a twisted and whacky kerf, not a return to the line. When you are patient and gentle and know what you're doing and the board is relatively thin, you can get away with pushing your saw sideways. But I don't recommend this approach.

Adam