handcut dovetails is softer woods

Re: handcut dovetails is softer woods

mikew

>fwiw, I always start my push-style backsaws (including the LN saws I have) on the forward stroke. Very light pressure to start, almost to the point of holding some of the weight from the wood. Saw is setting fully on the end grain, not tilted over one or the other edges.

I also do quite a bit with Poplar and use the above.

Mike

Re: handcut dovetails is softer woods

Warren in Lancaster, PA

>The trouble is that starting on the backstroke crushes the fibers rather than cutting them. I suggest getting a piece of scrap and practicing starting on the push stroke. You might like this technique better if you can learn to do it.

You're doin' it wrong!

Adam Cherubini

>That's a heck of a title, isn't it? Seriously- If I understand what you're doing correctly (i.e. beginning the cut by sawing straight across the end grain) this technique is just full of disadvantages. My guess is your saw is getting dull.

Here's an alternative approach: Start your cut by sawing out that near corner. So with a western dt, like either a gent's saw or a LN/Adria, your wrist is relaxed and the saw is pointed up at a 45 degree angle (this is why the handle is shaped this way). Advance on both lines at once just like you would for an acurate cross cut. This elimates the "starting problem" guarantees a straight cut, and can be used for all saw cuts. No skill required, just a simple technique that anyone can use and be successful with.

Its no great mystery. But it wasn't obvious to me when I started. I remember Tom Holloway and Ralph Brendler writing about sawing corners out on OldTools years ago. Those internet saw bugs really helped me stave off power tools in my shop and I'm grateful.

Thanks guys,

Adam

Agree

Derek Cohen (in Perth Australia)

>Les

The LN Independence saw (which I own) has teeth that are set more vertically than many, and it is this that creates the ability to cut aggressively (not, as you suggested Adam, that the saw may be blunt). By contrast, I have other dovetail saws, also with a 15 tpi rip and similar set, that cut in a more relaxed manner. They just do not cut as fast.

What I have learned to do - partly from frustrated experience and partly from the wisdom of advice of those who have gone before me (it is a common experience with LN backsaws) - is to do as Adam recommended, that is, tilt the saw up at about 45 degrees until the kerf is established. Thereafter you can cut more on the horizontal.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: Agree

Adam Cherubini

>Derek,

On second thought, I think you're right. Les' saw may be so sharp its just sinking into the softer tulip (I doubt he's working poplar- why we continue to call tulip "poplar" escapes me).

I think the aggressiveness you're talking about is rake. Though I've not done a side by side, I think LN has a bit of rake. Adria looked very low, maybe 10 degrees at most. Last LN I saw had 20 or so. Rake makes a saw feel smooth and helps beginning sawyers start the kerf.

Adam

Re: handcut dovetails is softer woods

George D. Huron

>My advise is to be gentle with the saw. If the saw is sharp, you just need to rub the teeth against the wood and the weight of the saw will be enough to allow the teeth to cut. I usually start the saw when dovetailing with a backstroke to set a kerf. With a back saw that is sharpened for an aggressive cut (the file is tilted forward when sharpening) the trade off is that they can be hard to start but then they cut very fast once started. You must do the exact opposite to what your instincts tell you when the saw sticks. You must back off and not bear down.

Re: handcut dovetails is softer woods *LINK*

George D. Huron

>Here is a link to a video where I dovetail in pine. The saw is a Disston with about 15 tpi sharpened for ripping (by me). You can see that not much effort should be required when making these cuts. If your saws were sharpened professionally, you probably need not worry about a "tall" tooth preventing your saw from working smoothly. Sight down your saw an make sure that you don't have a tall tooth or that the bent has not been bent accidentally (the horror).

You can fast forward the video to the sawing parts and rewind at your liesure.

Hope this helps.


http://www.springharvestfww.com/dovetails.htm

Re: handcut dovetails is softer woods

Ron in Kokomo

>Your saw is too sharp!!

Yes that is right is sinks into the soft wood too deeply to start a kerf well. Lift the saw till it is just barely touching the end grain.

I had this issue also with my IT saw

Ron

Re: You're doin' it wrong!

Dean J in MN

>

Here's an alternative approach: Start your cut by sawing out that near corner. So with a western dt, like either a gent's saw or a LN/Adria, your wrist is relaxed and the saw is pointed up at a 45 degree angle (this is why the handle is shaped this way). Advance on both lines at once just like you would for an acurate cross cut. This elimates the "starting problem" guarantees a straight cut, and can be used for all saw cuts. No skill required, just a simple technique that anyone can use and be successful with.

Sure do have to get up early to beat Adam to the punch...

Aside from echoing the above, you gain one more advantage, you can skip marking out the 'back' side of the dovetails. If you start your cuts as above and follow the two visible lines you have no need for

a rear line. (If you mark out the face lines at all that is.)

Cheers!

-Dean

Re: handcut dovetails is softer woods

Sam Simpson

>Hi Y'all,

This could be a simple matter of how far out of the vice the wood is being clamped.

Regards Sam Simpson.

Re: handcut dovetails is softer woods

Rob in Peoria

>George, I just watched you Dovetail video (caught the tenon one last week). Thanks for putting these resources on the web. Very valuable. I had a coupl'a questions, thought.

First, do you always leave so much waste after cutting with the coping saw? Looks like a lot of cleaning up with the vertical paring, although I certainly have to admit that the final results are clean and tight.

Second, what are your thoughts on the above-mentioned method for starting a saw (i.e., 45 degrees). I see that you start each cut with a single pulling of the saw all the way through so that it comes off the board.

Lastly, some observations. I had a hard time seeing what you were marking when you first started out and it looked for a minute that you were a pins first kinda guy. I almost shut you off there, but I perservered and was relieved to see you were, in fact, marking the tails. Also, it was nice to see that I'm not the only one who doesn't lift the plane of the wood for the return stroke. I also liked the way you set the plane on it's side to support the tail piece to mark the pins.

All in all, a fantastic live demonstration of the method Ian Kirby outlines in his book "The Complete Dovetail." Thanks again for your contribution.

Re: handcut dovetails is softer woods

Les Winter

>Well, thanks everybody. This sure has been an interesting investigation. Most of my work is in cherry and maple, and the Independence saw works nicely. For a few kitchen cabinet drawers, it isn't the best choice for me.

I took out my arsenal of dovetail saws and discovered that: more teeth = smaller teeth = easier starting. The little teeth skate better than the big ones on the Independence. The independence cuts faster, but the big teeth sink in and grab too much.

Angling the saw, helps but not too much.

So I conclude that it's just easier to use a little gents saw (I have the LV one) on very soft wood, and save the Independence for hardwoods.

By the way, running a candle over the teeth sure makes cutting easier.

YMVM.

thanks for all your help

Les

Re: handcut dovetails is softer woods

Jack Guzman from Maine

>I agree.I usually have my board farther out of the vise to mark the vertical lines on the face.I sometimes forget to lower it but am reminded quickly by difficulty in sawing.The unsupported wood moves with the saw enough to cause difficulty.---Jack

Re: handcut dovetails is softer woods

George D. Huron

>Thanks Rob. Because I am splitting the line drawn on the endgrain (for the tails) or leaving the knife line that is on the endgrain (for the pins) I like to set a kerf using my left thumb to guide the saw during the backstroke. Then I put the saw back in the kerf and concentrate on sawing the line on the front of the board in half. This two step approach is still fast and it keeps me accurate with my sawing. I do leave quite a bit after using the coping saw but I would rather not flirt with my gauge line and I am sawing pretty quickly with this saw. I suppose I could slow down and get closer but I feel that I have come to grips with a tempo that I am comfortable with. I am glad you liked the video. I hope to producer longer, project oriented videos soon.

Re: handcut dovetails is softer woods

paul womack

>First, do you always leave so much waste after cutting with the coping saw?

A coping saw has relatively large teeth (the Eclipse blade I use are 14 TPI). Since the waste removal is a cross cut, this can cause quite a bit of roughness on the back side; so you don't want to get too close to the line.

Unless...

If you use a cutting gauge when setting out, or re-knife the base marks, you can go much closer. It's the same technique one uses to get a clean cross cut on a plank; you knife the line.

Since marking the base line for dovetails is a cross grain mark, a marking gauge (with a pin) is pretty ineffective anyway.

BugBear