Marking/sawing tenon shoulders

Re: Marking/sawing tenon shoulders

Jim-W4QO/Hotlanta

>Thanks. I'll have to try this. I usually pare to the line with a chisel if it is something that is critical or fairly wide. That gives the saw something to set against. But this takes a couple minutes per tenon. Your method seems quicker!

All the best and keep the tips coming.

Jim in GA

Re: Marking/sawing tenon shoulders

Ron in Kokomo

>I have been doing this job this week also

I use a knife and make several cuts ( deepen the cut) I then take a razor sharp old Chas Buck chisel and cut a slight relief on the waste side of the line. My original Independence cross cut back saw then tracks perfectly!

I do this for all crosscut sawing. Now if I can just keep the bottom of the saw from creeping right on me :)

Re: Marking/sawing tenon shoulders

Ted Shuck, Centennial, CO

>Ron,

I've done this with a chisel as well, but it takes some time.

I found that if I made the second cut, then when I start the backsaw between the two cut lines, the wood between the lines chips out with very little effort. You will have a perfectly straight kerf established right away and with only a couple of seconds additional effort to make the second line.

Ted

Re: Marking/sawing tenon shoulders *LINK*

George Huron

>Here is some video that might help. I remove a curl of wood on the waste side to guide the saw.


http://www.springharvestfww.com/Tenon.htm

Re: Marking/sawing tenon shoulders

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I do the same thing, use a chisel, learned from Kingshott.

Pam

Re: Marking/sawing tenon shoulders

Ron in Kokomo

>I'll be in the shop tomorrow evening, and I'll try it and post back!

Re: Marking/sawing tenon shoulders

George D. Huron

>Kingshott's videos and Frid's books combined with a little practice have been large contributors to my woodworking skills.

Re: Marking/sawing tenon shoulders

Frank Mutchler in Colorado Springs

>Evening, George. Very nice video! You demonstrate the principle that the whole is the sum of its parts. Having taken the time to master each individual step you put them in sequence and make cutting that haunched tenon look easy.....and I guess it really is.......for you ;>)

Question

Adam Cherubini

>Ted,

I'm not sure I understand. When you saw the shoulder, do you place the saw flat on the line then start the cut?

Is that what George did in the video? (I can't see the video right now).

I guess my question revolves around why this situation is different than any accurate cross cut. Is this groove for the saw standard operating procedure for all cross cuts?

Adam

P.S. Anybody else really impressed with George's video (and mug shot in the latest FWW)? I especially liked how he split off those tenon cheeks. I'm too chicken for stuff like that!

Re: Question

Ted Shuck, Centennial, CO

>Adam,

I can't see George's video either. I am at the office and can't view videos here on my Linux system.

What I do is knife one line at the normal shoulder position. I step my striking knife over a saw kerf width into the waste, slide my square against it, and knife another line one saw kerf width from the first line. I place the teeth of my crosscut saw between these two lines, draw back a few teeth, and then make a forward stroke.

The wood between the two knife lines has no support. It will chip out almost immediately at the movement of the saw over it and establish a kerf between the two knifed lines.

I think what George (and Pam, and others) are doing is using a chisel to make a shallow V against the initial knifed line. This works to establish a pseudo-kerf where the saw will center itself when starting the cut. This works well, but I believe that the method I am using is much quicker and works just as well.

Regards,

Ted

Re: Question

Warren in Lancaster, PA

>Adam

I think these techniques can greatly increase the accuracy and confidence for many workers. For someone with a tenon saw in his hand every day it is fast and accurate to just saw to the line for both the crosscuts and the rip cuts and I think these are the historical methods. Sometimes it is difficult to make the jump and just go for the line knowing that accuracy may be compromised while learning a new skill.

Re: George's video

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Well, I finally watched the whole thing last night, and have to say George's process is way to fussy for me, too many tiny adjustments and the like that in my experience lead to problems. It can work, I'm not saying George is doing it wrong; although making the rip cuts with a chisel is way too risky vis a vis tearout. I'd certainly do this bevel down if I were ever tempted.

First, I do all the marking, including the rip cuts, which settings are made from the chisel used to mortice, not from the mortise itself. So I set the mortise gauge once. After knifing the line, I then make a V cut by chiselling parallel to the lines in the waste, then I saw everything just barely outside the line in the waste on the tenon. Then fit and adjust if necessary. There's no way I'd ever make the rip cuts with a chisel or use a router plane (except in dados that are midboard).

Pam

PS George, your video is huge. Why not edit it to remove repetitive actions?

Re: George's video

George Huron

>The video is too long I admit.

I split to about 1/16 from my gauge line so I don't worry about tearout. Also, the initial splits are half the waste to read the grain and determine how close I can to the line I can split. I believe the router plane is the best tool for fine adjustments of tenon cheeks. If light cuts are taken and the router is swung in an arc, it is easy to pare the cheeks a little at a time and keep them parallel to the face.

This tool is superior to a shoulder plane for planing the cheeks of a tenon. After the cheeks fit, a shoulder plane can register against the accurate cheek and trim the shoulders if necessary.

I think sawing the cheeks take more effort and is slower.

Re: Question

George Huron

>This is correct. I knife the line and chisel a groove from the waste side. The saw slides down this ramp until it rides against the small "wall" of wood created by the knife.

Re: George's video

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Well, I think I could have cut two or three tenons in the time it took to watch your video. :)

That said, I didn't intend to be all that critical of your process; but I always get into trouble when I don't cut to the line and go for it, something about those tiny adjustments that I'm psychologically predisposed against.

Pam

Re: George's video

George Huron

>If I mortise with a chisel, I set the mortise gauge to the chisel that I used to chop the mortise (just as Pam says). But I just wanted to show the tenon cut by hand in the video (the mortise could have been cut using power tools and this method for cutting tenons to fit would still work).

Re: George's video

George Huron

>Well, the video also shows cutting the tenon to width, to length and marking and cutting the haunch. I could have deleted splitting and paring of the second cheek but I wanted to show the whole process that I use. Most often, I don't need to use the router plane because I can pare my mortise gauge lines in half very repeatably with a chisel. I can honestly say that I can't rip my mortise gauge lines in half repeatably.

Re: George's video

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Even if a power mortiser is used, the gauge can be set to the chisel used in the machine; however, you're right, your method would probably work every time, allowing for minor differences caused by measuring the mortise. But it takes longer and introduces an occasion for error.

Pam

Not criticizing

Adam Cherubini

>I'm not criticizing anyone. I just wanted to understand what the problem was so I could place the solution into some context.

George,

I have a fast internet connection (dsl) and had no trouble enjoying your video. My vote is to leave it alone. I appreciate seeing other skilled craftsmen work. This is something I don't get to see everyday.

Warren,

I'm not good enough to saw straight across a board. I always saw the corners out. With a haunched tenon, this method is a little bit trickier/worse, since you don't have much thickness to saw thru. Even with a kerf laid in as Ted suggests, I won't get my shoulder perpendicular sawing straight down across the face, because I suck. Sawing through the thickness solves that problem, but creates others as I said.

I go fast to be sure, but I wouldn't want a furniture display booth next to George Huron's!

Adam

Re: Marking/sawing tenon shoulders

paul womack

>discussion from a while back

BugBear

Re: Not criticizing

George D. Huron

>Thank you Warren. Like many others here, I am simply trying to learn and pass on old methods so that they are not forgotten. After learning myself from older, more experienced woodworkers, and from my own experience, I teach newer woodworkers to keep our beloved traditions alive. Like any good teacher I am always listening and learning from my peers (you all). I don't think any of us pretend to invent these methods, we just work together to rediscover, reinvent and simply pass on what we have learned. That is why I like WoodCentral.

WOW

frank_shic (walnut ck, ca)

>george, those videos are GREAT! thanks so much for sharing them so willingly with the public! i enjoyed watching your tenon as well as your dovetail videos. hope that more are coming in the future!

Re: Marking/sawing tenon shoulders

Mark Harrison -- in Sydney, Australia

>Greate video. Thank you for sharing that.

I hadn't seen the method you used to cut the waste of the cheek of the tenon with a chisel before. Like you, I found the cordless router a reliable method of finishing the cheek. Much easier than a shoulder plane, for me at least.