Adria dovetails saw. GULP!

Re: Adria dovetails saw. GULP!

tim_leo

>I don't have an Adria Saw, but I have had a similar experience with another top-of-the-line handsaw. My old Disston dovetail saw just just as good as the new one.

And I kept both of them as well.

Re: Adria dovetails saw. GULP!

Tom Colligan, Peoria

>That's a lesson I've learned over and over again, Ken, but thanks for airing your experience. So many purchases I've made in the last 4 years as a result of raves from my fellow neanders here and very few seem to be an improvement over what I already had.

The Awful Truth

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>Hi Ken

Yes, more evidence of the The Awful Truth. The AT confirms that Old Tools, especially saws, can be (and usually are) as good as (if not better than) the modern version. A good old Disston that has been sharpened up and set correctly will cut perfectly well.

I bought a LN Independence Dovetail Saw about 18 months ago. It is a great saw. I could really not tell much difference between it and the Adria (although I have not used them side-by-side). It cuts as straight as a die. It is comfortable to hold. It looks like a jewel. But my old John Cotterill that I sharpened and set myself (also 15 tpi rip) cuts as straight AND with a little more ease when starting the cut (I put this down to the slightly less rake on teeth which makes the cut less aggressive). For cutting I actually prefer the JC.

The Awful Truth is that we buy the LNs and Adrias more for their looks than for their performance. We can get the performance elsewhere and cheaper, but they do look good, don't they? I'm not knocking this aspect - as a hobbiest, I use handtools for enjoyment not because my life depended on it. But sometimes we have to face The Awful Truth.

Regards from Perth

Derek

In Adria's defense

Adam Cherubini

>I don't have any Adria saws, or any new saws. But I also don't have any open handle DT's, let alone open handle dovatails with the right number of teeth, correct blade length, in good shape etc etc.

The advantage these saws offer is that you can buy exactly what you want without having to spend hours restoring, removing rust, retoothing, refinishing the gummy handle etc. When you look at it that way, I think these tools are a bargain. In my experience there's no such thing as a $5 saw.

These new old saws really are unlike new old planes. In many instances, (especially the routine surface planes) there are plenty of antiques available that can be restored fairly easily. Given the choice, I think Galootdom would be better served if LN made saws with the same zeal and quality as their bench planes. Ditto, we'd be better served if C&W made dadoes, rabbets, and molders (which they DO make- but you get my point).

Adam

Re: In Adria's defense

Patrick Gibbons, Houston

>I've been led to believe that old saws have better steel than the new saws do (and old chisels vs. new as well). I would think that one proof of that superiority would be longer time between sharpenings. I have old and new saws and cannot tell a difference. I am also a hobbiest and don't use my saws often enough to get a good feel for how long between sharpenings my various saws will go. Heck I haven't even had to resharpen any but one with another getting there. I agree with Adam that there's no such thing as a $5.00 saw. My $5.00 saw cost me about $35.00 by the time I added in sharpening and shipping. It also was missing two saw nuts which I had from a previous purchase. I didn't need to spend much time cleaning it up, perhaps an hour at most. Then there was the waiting for the saw to be sharpened and returned. Throwing those elements into the mix greatly increases the cost of the saw. They're not actual out-of-pocket costs but they do have a variable value. Finding the extra saw nuts might be a greater impediment to many. On the other side of the coin where can I buy a 9 point hand saw new? Yes I think Adam is right about the need for new hand saws.

Is old steel better???

jim reed @ Tallahassee

>I do not agree that "old steel is better". Modern steelmaking is vastly superior to old steelmaking. Steel SELECTION on old tools may be superior to steel SELECTION on some new tools. Modern high carbon steel (Hock, LN, my own Reedmaster blades) will beat the old stuff any day of the week.

When a modern toolmaker uses cheap stainless because it looks good and is cheap, they are easy targets for older is better. BUT when a modern manufacturer uses the appropriate steel, it is almost always superior to the old stuff.

Re: Is old steel better???

Patrick Gibbons, Houston

>Thanks Jim, I was hoping someone who had personal knowledge of the differences in steels would comment. Availability of the "right" steel and how it is worked would seem to me to be the most important factors. Companies such as Disston made their own steel. I'd think that would make a big difference being able to control mixtures and processes.

But the concern is not about the steel..

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>The common concern raised about modern Western handsaws (since this is where the topic began) is not about the steel, per se. How often do you hear a complaint that a modern saw too quickly becomes blunt? No, the complaint is that these saws cannot cut straight. And then the finger is pointed at the poorly set teeth. It is an automatic recommendation, sight unseen, that a new Western styled handsaw can be improved by stoning the set. So a related question is, what is the quality control of modern mass manufacturers (NOT the small manufacturers like LN and Adria) like compared to their counterparts of yesteryear (Disston, Stanley, etc)? Then again, perhaps it is not quality control - I suspect that we just get what the manufacturers are prepared to offer their market - an undiscriminating public. And which is why we will only get the quality from small scale specialists like LN and Adria.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: Adria dovetails saw. GULP!

alan womack

>Recently, I had a chance to use my LV $50 dozuki against an instuctors LN Dovetail saw. The dozuki can cut to a line with relative ease, but the edges are NOT parrallel down the kerf. The flexing of the blade causes some wandering within the kerf. This in 1/2" larch, which is basically white pine.

The LN cost me $130 CN, I KNOW any error belongs to me, and introduced me to what a real saw could do. My whole stack of rip and crosscut saws are now, knowingly, horribly dull and need to head out sometime this month.

I'd like to have an old diston, but it would distract me from actually getting some work done in the shop vs. puttering with my tools.

In a previous lifetime.

Doug Reynolds in Seattle

>In a previous lifetime I was a member of a national NRA 3-gun pistol team. Several members were past Olympians and multiple national champs. One guy shot a pistol that truly looked as if he went to the hardware store, had the clerk lay a bunch of similar pistols on the counter then, this guy would just start swapping parts essentially building a new gun from old parts. It worked for him. My wife could never understand why I would buy a new gun then, send it to some very high priced gunsmith to "get fixed", usually costing me more than the original gun. We used to say there are three variables in world-class marksmanship; the gun, the ammo, and the individual. You can buy the first two. When I was standing on the firing line and the shot did not go where I wanted, I knew it could only be my fault. I was able to focus on my skill and not tweak with my "tools". Today, I am retired from competition but, continue to obtain the best quality tools I can. I started with what I could afford and, as my skills improved I obtained more accurate tools. Anything less is a false economy. If my cut and fit are not what I wanted well, you know the rest.

Re: But the concern is not about the steel..

Patrick Gibbons, Houston

>Derek, I also wonder if Disston and Atkins and other sawmakers of the past delivered to the retailer saws that were ready to go once purchased. I read it here or somewhere else, someone had opined that old woodworking books took for granted that their audience knew basic sharpening of most blades and implements. The majority of handsaw purchasers today are hobbyists. I know I have a lot to learn about sharpening.

Re: But the concern is not about the steel..

Todd Hughes

>You can better believe that Disston saws were delevered all ready to go, I have had more then a few Mint never used Disstons and all were sharp sharp. As to the better steels being made today maybe they do but what good are they if they are not and can not be put into modern tools to sell at a reasonable price.

A saw or for that matter a plane, is an extreamly simple item so is there any wonder that new made ones are not really an improvement over a vintage example.Would be curious to hear about exactly how a saw of today could be an improvement over an old one.....Imagine a point could be made for unbreakable plastic handles,...opps Disston brought them out over 60 years ago!.....Todd

Re: Adria dovetails saw. GULP!

L. Hanson

>I recently was interested in finding out how different saws worked for me... I tried out five different "dovetail" (some are tenon or carcass) saws I own, including a dozuki, an old disston, an old Jackson, my old Warranted Superior, and a saw I made last year. The saws range in size and TPI a bit...

Anyway, I wrote it up for a post in another forum (just remember that it's *entirely* subjective - it did it purely out of curiosity and simply wrote down my thoughts)if you are interested:

Testing 5 Different Back Saws

It was more about how the saws "felt" to me, rather than how accurately they cut - I believe any properly sharpened saw can be "accurate", that depends more on the user than anything.

Unfortunately, I don't own or have ever used an Adria or LN (or *any* new saw other than one I made for myself), so I can't compare to either of those. I think what I figured out that amongst the most important factors in determining how successful a saw will cut depends as much on familiarity with the particular saw as much as anything. Sharpness took a back seat when I compared other saws to a saw I've used for 20 years. Sharpening an old Disston made it perform as well as any saw in the bunch - and using a dozuki showed me my clumsiness with that style of saw, not having used one very much.

Other than familiarity, sharpness of the saw and comfort in using are probably the most important factors - more important than width of the blade, IMO, though that does still make a difference.

Leif

www.norsewoodsmith.com

Re: Adria dovetails saw. GULP!

Steve Kubien

>"The dozuki can cut to a line with relative ease, but the edges are NOT parrallel down the kerf."

Maybe I'm a little thicker than usual because I've been on vacation for a week but...Alan, what do you mean by this? I am envisioning a kerf that is narrow at the top and wider at the bottom (or vise-versa). Please help a guy who has got 'cottage brain'.

Thanks,

Steve Kubien

Re: Adria dovetails saw. GULP!

alan womack

>Think of it as a ragged edges, instead of nice clean edge like the lie nielson creates, the dozuki leaves a tooth like pattern in tangent to the line.

^_^_^_

Something like that, perhaps I can get a photo today and post it up here.

Alan

Re: Adria dovetails saw. GULP!

alan womack

>Sample cuts scanned on a flatbed at 400 dpi, the crooked cuts are my doing not the saw. This is in 3/4" beech. You can see as I practiced going to the left, my straightness improved.

Looking along the teeth of the Dozuki, I do not believe the blade to be true anymore, there seems to be a wave in it.

Alan

Re: Adria dovetails saw. GULP!

MikeW

>Alan,

I quickly did the same thing and the results are below. Though I didn't experience the same thing as you, I had a thought.

Yours appears to show that the Dozuki may not only be bent, but that it cuts such a wide kerf that, especially at the beginning of the cut, it allows the saw to wobble in the cut.

But one can also see that in the LN kerfs, just to a much less degree.

I do like my small Dozuki, but found it actually more difficult to cut to a lint. I found the same thing on a gents saw I had. I have a tendancy to twist straight handles regardless of push or pull.

Good luck, MikeW

Re: Adria dovetails saw. GULP!

Sgian Dubh

>I've tried the Japanese style saws a few times and I found that if you start to drift off the line for whatever reason they're hard to get back on track.

On the other hand the typical western style saw has a stiff enough blade, and with the support of the back you can skew it and cut to one side a bit to get things back to where they should have been.

Another problem with the Japanese style saws and their narrow kerf is that it's hard to get in with a coping saw blade and cut the waste out between the dovetails or the pins without affecting the already cut saw kerf width. Slainte.

Re: Adria dovetails saw. GULP!

Steve Kubien

>Thanks for the help Alan. I knew it had to be something simple but my brain isn't working.

Cheers,

Steve Kubien