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WAY OT - Gotta love the tour idiots.

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WAY OT - Gotta love the tour idiots.

#1

WAY OT - Gotta love the tour idiots.

Greg Sloop, Portland Oregon

>

http://www.velonews.com/view_full.php?image=/images/details/8527.12005.f.jpg

There are a lot of Lance idiots this year too, though this doesn't appear to be one.

Sheesh!

Spoiler---

Unless tragady befalls Lance, he's got number 7 all setup too. Pretty insane if you ask me. (But watch OLN and american media drop the tour next year like a hot potato if some American rider doesn't come to fill the void. Nationalistic goofs we are...at least when it comes to cycling.)

Greg

Re: WAY OT - Gotta love the tour idiots.

#2

Re: WAY OT - Gotta love the tour idiots.

Bob Fawcett

>What will the Only Lance Network do without him?

Re: WAY OT - Gotta love the tour idiots.

#3

Re: WAY OT - Gotta love the tour idiots.

Dan Moening

>Greg,

You certainly seem to be way more on top of this than me; but aren't there 2 other Americans in the top 10 GC?

Hencapie and ?

Wouldn't Zabrieske be near the top if it weren't for his crash? Or is he not mountain capable?

I watched those fans and the motorcycle crash on TV ... really something else. I can't imagine what the riders go through to get through those crowds...uphill...both ways ;^)

Dan.

Re: WAY OT - Gotta love the tour idiots.

#4

Re: WAY OT - Gotta love the tour idiots.

Greg Sloop, Portland Oregon

>Hincapie won today, but not without at least some controversy. In short, the nay-sayers claim he didn't pull much if at all on the day.

I don't agree, Piereo (sp) could have sat up and forced him to pull. Instead, as I hear it, he tried to drop him. Since he wasn't able to do so, and GH has a better sprint, Piereo got toasted. Sorta unjust, but hey, there's a lot of "too bad" moments in the tour.

As for Americans. Disco is not nearly as dominant this year as last. GH isn't near the top - and won't be likely.

Here's the top ten GC right now.

1. Lance Armstrong (USA), Discovery Channel, 62:09:59

2. Ivan Basso (I), CSC, 02:46

3. Mickael Rasmussen (Dk), Rabobank, 03:09

4. Jan Ullrich (G), T-Mobile, 05:58

5. Francisco Mancebo (Sp), Illes Balears, 06:31

6. Levi Leipheimer (USA), Gerolsteiner, 07:35

7. Floyd Landis (USA), Phonak, 09:33

8. Alexandre Vinokourov (Kaz), T-Mobile, 09:38

9. Christophe Moreau (F), Credit Agricole, 11:47

10. Andreas Kloden (G), T-Mobile, 12:01

Rasmussen will probably fall lower in the time trial, and Vino may take some fall tomorrow, IMHO. (Then again he may try attacking tomorrow, but I doubt it.)

Zabrieske: He can't time trial well, and it remained to be seen how well he would have done in the mountains. Further, Basso is the team leader of CSC so Z would have to sacrifice himself for Basso. Undounbtedly he would have fallen far down the list - but it's too bad he had to withdraw from misfortune. That's one thing Lance has managed to avoid somehow in the last 7 tours. (e.g. Greg Lemond got shot (shot-gunned, literally) by his bro-in-law one year.) A flat on a time-trial etc, could have single handedly put him under etc. So, luck along with simply perfect reletive execution of plan and undoubtedly a very strong guy and team gave us the improbable.

As for the "Only Lance Network," I agree. (Just saw that on a forum recently...I thought it was bad last year when I saw OLN, is it worse this year? ...gag.) I don't have OLN, wouldn't shell out the cash...But when you see Nascar types who think "Schwinn" when they think bicycle, or "Good thing I've got a bug shield" when they see a bicyclist on the road, rooting for Lance with the case of Bud at their side, you know that cycling has gone way beyond the normal rational sport into fad sports. We'll see if OLN does much with the tour without an American as a serious contender for the GC or at a minimum some other jersey.

This is a neat year though. Lance's team has not been as totally domanant, and we've gotten to see a more "real" LA who has gone one-on-one a number of times and shown he can crack everyone. Perhaps not huge, but even Lance's bad days aren't costing him, and when Vino has a bad day, it's a 5:00+ day loss.

Anyway. To keep this on topic, do you think Lance has any handplanes? :)

Cheers,

Greg

Re: WAY OT - Gotta love the tour idiots.

#5

Just curious...

Eric from Little Rhody

>...what is a "Nascar type", exactly?

Re: WAY OT - Gotta love the tour idiots.

#7

Re: WAY OT - Gotta love the tour idiots.

TT guy

>>Zabrieske: He can't time trial well

You gotta be kidding me! Zabriskie (note spelling) is one of the best time trialists in the world.

Somehow you missed the fact that he beat Armstrong in the first stage of the Tour this year. Not to mention his Giro TT win earlier this year, and his US National Championship TT win last year.

Re: WAY OT - Gotta love the tour idiots.

#8

Re: WAY OT - Gotta love the tour idiots.

Greg Sloop, Portland Oregon

>Oops, you're right, though it's likely he beat Lance from a cross-tail wind earlier in the day that Lance didn't get. (That's the word I hear...) But true enough he does trial well. I just wasn't thinking.

How well he did later in the tour in the mountains etc remained to be seen.

Cheers,

Greg

Re: WAY OT - Gotta love the tour idiots.

#9

Re: Just curious...

Greg Sloop, Portland Oregon

>Well, the other reply isn't half bad, but here's how I see it.

There are a bunch of people, not just Nascar fans, who have absolutely no idea what goes on in cycling - no idea how complex the tour is, how difficult, how bound to luck etc. They go out and prostrate themselves, figuratively, in front of Lance, and talk about how he's the best in history, the best athlete of all time etc. How winning the MJ (Yellow Jersey) shows he's incredible etc.

What they seem to have in abundance is "nationalistic" pride. While it might be justified, they've reached it for all the wrong reasons. They don't understand that Lance lives for the TDF. He doesn't race a lot of different races as Merckx did - not that any perennial tour winner does any more... They don't understand how dominant the team has been and how incredibly self-sacrificing. (Yesterday was the first time ANY team-mate of Lance's had EVER won a stage in the TDF – probably the one and only time being a team-member of the MJ ever paid off.) They don't seem to realize that Lance hasn't flatted (punctured) in any trial stage - ever, I think. He's rarely even flatted period.

Jan Ulrich's crashed in the rain in a Time Trial, IIRC 2003. I think he's even flatted recently.

Lance's greatest misfortune of late was a Musette bag in 2003, and the resultant cracked chain-stay - but even the chain stay didn't cause him huge problems and IIRC he broke Ulrich on that stage.

So, yes, Lance is great - even awesome - perhaps one of the best, if not the best rider ever. But the view of the (now maligned) "Nascar" types is so far from reality it's not funny. They may even be right, they just have reached that conclusion from knowledge-less, nationalistic pride (dare I say arrogance) rather than knowing the real reasons Lance is "the best."

A lynching party may "rightly" kill a rapist and murderer. Being correct in the punishment doesn't make me admire them as the height and depth of reason. (Sorry, I couldn't come up with a less inflammatory example.)

Cheers,

Greg

Re: WAY OT - Gotta love the tour idiots.

#10

That's just wrong :-)

Eric from Little Rhody

>

Re: WAY OT - Gotta love the tour idiots.

#11

Re: Just curious...

Eric from Little Rhody

>OK, sounds like the group you're referring to might best be categorized as "casual bicycle racing fans". There are casual fans of every sport. If by Nascar types, you meant rednecks, might be tough to explain those 100,000 people who sat in the stands up North in New Hampshire yesterday :-).

As you can probably tell, I'm a NASCAR fan, though I don't think that actually makes me a member of a type, at least not the type that I think you mean. Though, now that you mention it, I do drink Bud on occasion, although I prefer a good IPA like Dogfish Head or Sierra Nevada (Bud comes in cans, though, so it’s easier to bring to the race track :-). And in terms of Armstrong, I certainly admit nationalistic reasons for rooting for him, as I’d imagine that an American consistently winning the Tour de France must annoy some of those snooty French fans, and that makes me chuckle a bit. In a nationalistic sort of way. Hmm. Maybe I am a “Nascar type” :-).

In the end, however, it’s just a bicycle race, and I don’t get too worked up over it. Not like it's baseball or anything ;-).

Re: WAY OT - Gotta love the tour idiots.

#12

BaseBall, Oh Yeah!

Todd O. Cronkhite

>Not like it's baseball or anything ;-).

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeah Buddy! How 'bout them '04 RED SOXs eh?!!!!

Man, What a RUSH!!!!

Road Warrior Hawk

Don't know nothing about Bicycle racing other than to try to beat everybody else to the Finish Line. Didn't even know that there was teams and strategys etc, etc. Won't take nothing away from Lance tho, seems to me to be a heck of an Athlete in his sport.

Todd O.

Take me out to the ball game game

Re: WAY OT - Gotta love the tour idiots.

#13

Re: Just curious...

Greg Sloop, Portland Oregon

>

OK, sounds like the group you're referring to might best be categorized as "casual bicycle racing fans".


No, casual isn't the ticket.

How about the check your brain at the door, root for the USA no matter who deserves to win, no matter what. Who cares about logic and honor and good tactics. I'll just act like a fool and root for Lance. The same kind of thing happens often, IMHO, at the Olympics. We get so whacked out rooting for a nationality we'll get downright nasty and evil about it. (And it seems so kooky for an American (USA) of all people being nationalistic. Most of us have none or few of the real traits of national identity, as our heritage/racial identity is so foggy it's goofy.)

Anyway. It's a tough thing to describe. Indurain deserved his wins, and very truely so. No American knows or even cares about him, or Merckx or Hinault. (A few know about Hinault due to the last run of Nationalistic pride, Greg Lemond and his clashes with Hinault.)

Cheers,

Greg

Re: WAY OT - Gotta love the tour idiots.

#14

Re: WAY OT - Gotta Love This Place!

Alan Hamilton

>Greg--and all the other true fans of bicycle racing,

This thread is terrific! Thanks for starting it Greg.

Really...I'm serious. It's so rare to come across people who really know something about making bicycles go fast. Others just don't--or maybe can't--understand. To really appreciate what those guys are doing I think you almost have to have tried it yourself; you need to have at least done a century and a time trial, and maybe even a criterium.

Last weekend we had a barbeque at my sister's. My niece's fiancee was watching the Yankees' game on the television; and, stupidly, I wondered aloud why no one was interested in the Tour. Even more stupidly, I tried to stir some interest by talking about how those racers are thought to be right at the limit of human endurance; how they can just barely metabolize enough calories in a day to keep going day after day after day; how Greg LeMond (IIRC it was GL) began his last tour on a diet of 8000 calories per day, and lost weight! so he had to increase his calories.

Nothing. No reaction at all--except my sister who said something nonsensical comparing ballerinas and bicycle riders. They just had no idea, no concept whatever; and there was nothing I could say that would even begin to explain it to them.

But here! at Wood Central no less! I come across intelligent discussion about this year's Tour. Amazing. I love this place.

Alan

Re: WAY OT - Gotta love the tour idiots.

#15

Re: WAY OT - Gotta love the tour idiots.

Dean in Burlington

>I don't think OLN will drop the tour next year. They may give it 1 more year of coverage. Remember....OLN was showing bike racing pre-Lance. I remember watching the 98,99 Giro and Tour on OLN.

Lance did great this year but I don't think T-Mobile is very smart. They could have done more. When you have 3 stars (teamates) in the break with Armstong with no teamates you don't pace him up the climb just like Discovery would have....you attack him 1 by 1 until he cracks. Now they might not have been strong enough to crack him but at least try. Vinny did. Problem is everyone races for second.

Re: WAY OT - Gotta love the tour idiots.

#16

Re: WAY OT - Gotta love the tour idiots.

Greg Sloop, Portland Oregon

>I believe in most cases, the DS of TMob says that when Vino attacked, it was to see if LA would move. Lance didn't, and Ulrich attacked to get back to Vino. Lance simply followed.

That's not to say that TMob hasn't had problems, but I do think they've done the most they could realistically expect. Lance has simply been able to cover *everyone* he wanted to cover, regardless of how many Disco's were around.

As I said earlier. His team (Discos) has been less dominate relative to the peleton this year, and though Lance hasn't tossed them in the ditch this year like last, he has simply been able to ride away from anyone who really had GC contention this year - any time he wanted.

If Lance can ride away any time he wants, then no team in the world is going to make a difference unless they can all ride with Lance, and that neglects that the team leaders can't even stay with him. Note that Basso, Ulrich, Vino, et. al. simply couldn't keep up at all in the first day in the mountains - the alps. This has been the same, with exception, Basso has been able to keep up, but certainly unable to ride away even once with Lance in tow.

This tour hasn't been a nail biter, or a huge show of force, but it has shown a LA that has been able to *consistantly* outperform anyone else on the tour. (More than consistantly, every time, actually.)

Cheers,

Greg

PS. I have an LA Times article I'll repost on the main thread about the DS of Postal/Discovery. Very interesting.

Re: WAY OT - Gotta love the tour idiots.

#17

Re: WAY OT - Gotta love the tour idiots.

Greg Sloop, Portland Oregon

>The Mind Behind the Motor

Johan Bruyneel, sports director of Discovery team, is Armstrong’s trusted Tour guide.

By Diane Pucin, LA Times Staff Writer

PAU, France — The question was asked in French. The answer came quickly and loudly in English.

Johan Bruyneel, a poker-faced Belgian who drives with his knees and speaks five languages, was asked this: would Lance Armstrong have won a single Tour de France title without him?

"No," Bruyneel said, "I don't think so."

Bruyneel, 40, most noted for taking a wrong turn off a cliff in the Alps during cycling's greatest race, has lived in the shadow of Armstrong since the two joined forces in 1998. Bruyneel calls himself "the man without the engine but the mind to win," and in Armstrong he found the engine.

Armstrong is pointed toward an unprecedented seventh consecutive Tour de France title when the 2005 race ends Sunday in Paris. After staying even with or gaining time on his top rivals last weekend in the Pyrenees, even five-time runner-up and 1997 champion Jan Ullrich, who is fourth overall, said Monday that, "I'm only racing for the podium now."

In other words, Ullrich is hoping to finish second or third. Defeating Armstrong would only come, he said, if something unexpected happened to the 33-year-old Texan, who has a 2-minute 46-second lead on second-place Ivan Basso and a 5:58 lead on Ullrich.

One of the few losses Armstrong's Discovery Channel team has suffered this year came Monday when Basso, a talented 27-year-old Italian, announced he had signed a three-year contract extension with CSC. Without knowing Basso had re-upped, Bruyneel said he would like to see Basso inherit Armstrong's role as leader for Discovery next year.

"Too bad," Bruyneel said.

It sounded as if Bruyneel felt it was too bad for Basso.

Bruyneel, the son of jewelry store owners, was a bike racer from a small town near Brugges who started the sport late after getting his marketing degree. After finishing his competitive career at the end of the 1997 season, he thought he would move into the field of public relations.

"It happened that Lance called me in the fall after I retired," Bruyneel said. "We were talking and he said he wasn't happy with the leadership on his team. As we continued to talk he asked me if I wanted to work with him. I am a man of impulse and on impulse, I said yes."

Armstrong was still feeling his way back to the sport after spending nearly two years recovering from the testicular cancer that had spread to his lungs and brain. His French team, Cofidis, had ended its contract with the American rider and Armstrong had signed with the U.S. Postal Service team (Discovery Channel took over sponsorship this year).

Bruyneel had competed against Armstrong before the Texan had become ill.

"An immense talent with an immense engine," was Bruyneel's impression. But Bruyneel also thought Armstrong was undisciplined, impetuous and headstrong.

As a racer Bruyneel was meticulous in his preparation. He won a Tour stage in 1995 when he rode the wheel of five-time champion Miguel Indurain into Liege, Belgium, and passed Indurain at the end. Bruyneel's 1996 crash, where he tumbled 20 feet off a cliff, then climbed back up and continued on to finish the stage, is passed on as a Tour legend.

In the post-cancer Armstrong, Bruyneel found a young man willing to listen to his ideas. It was Bruyneel who thought the racer should scout each Tour stage himself instead of dispatching a coach to drive the route. It was Bruyneel who urged Armstrong to establish a training base in Europe and do testing in a wind tunnel to learn how to ride faster.

"It's a remarkable relationship we have," Bruyneel said, "and it worked from the beginning. I met him and passed through his life at the right moment. I didn't have a lot of experience and neither did he. I just had a vision and he believed it."

The story goes that when Bruyneel met Armstrong for the first time, he told Armstrong, "I'll see you on the podium in Paris."

That story is true, Armstrong said. "That's why, when I retire, I'd love for Johan to win a Tour without me."

Every day for six years Bruyneel and Armstrong have spoken by phone seven or eight times a day. They finish each other's sentences. They trust each other.

"If Johan tells me something," Armstrong has said, "that's what we'll do."

Now Armstrong has won six straight Tours. Bruyneel is still undefeated as a team sports director in the race. Yet he still passes through each day almost unnoticed.

As fans mob the team van each morning looking for Armstrong or his girlfriend, Sheryl Crow, Bruyneel walks among them to slip into a car. During the stage Bruyneel steers with his knees while he speaks to each of the nine team members constantly in a handful of languages. He monitors the race on a small television mounted on the dashboard.

And at the end of the stage, as Armstrong slips on another yellow jersey, as media members and town mayors, teenage girls and old men beg for autographs, Bruyneel walks unnoticed again to look ahead to the next stage.

"Johan doesn't get as much credit as he should," Discovery member George Hincapie said. "He's really a great technical mind. He understands racing."

Bruyneel also knows what the best racing minds think. Can he win without Armstrong?

"I start from the idea that we can't replace Lance," Bruyneel said. "There's no one who can do what Lance has been doing for years. But I think this team can win another Tour.

"I think we can find and develop good racers."

Re: WAY OT - Gotta love the tour idiots.

#18

Re: WAY OT - Gotta love the tour idiots.

Alan Hamilton

>Greg,

Wow. What an ego!

It reminds me of something Csey Stengal said about managing the Yankees: "I wasn't near as smart when Mantle and Berra were in a slump." The obvious corollary to that: he was a lot smarter when Mantle and Berra had a streak going. In other words, the performance of his players made him look smart or dumb, not the other way around.

I think there are just way too many examples of managers, coaches and trainers whose success exactly tracks the talent and performance of their athletes to take such claims seriously.

Alan

Re: WAY OT - Gotta love the tour idiots.

#19

Re: WAY OT - Gotta love the tour idiots.

Dean in Burlington

>That's why I said they might not be able to attack him but at least try. This is the Tour de France....you don't race for second or third. Lance doesn't even think about 2nd and that's the difference. There is only one way to beat Lance and Pantani knew it. The last year Pantani rode the tour he attacked early forcing US Postal to go over their limit pulling him back. Now even know Pantani cracked himself (he wasn't the same rider after 99) he still cracked Armstrong. Armstrong lost 2 minutes that day to Ullrich and it's the only time he cracked other than in 2003 when he had all kinds of problems. Armstrong is a very calculating guy....he measures his food intake for a stage and if you hit him hard early he may bonk. But you need the sudden accerleration then decelerations to do this. If you have 3 guys 2 guys can recover while the other one is attacking, but Lance because he is isolated has to cover them all. Now Lance seems really stong and would probably attack and blow them all away but at least try!!!! At least it would force him to go harder ealier than he wanted.

You should listen to me Greg :) I'm an ex semi-pro bike racer. I have raced with Hincapie, Steve Bauer, Tyler Hamilton, Piotr Mazur (World Junior TT Champion and Current Polish Elite TT Champion) and many Canadian National team members. I know these things :) I should be a DS :)

Also there is another reason why Disco is so good and it has nothing to do with training and tactics....but that's another can of worms.

Re: WAY OT - Gotta love the tour idiots.

#20

Re: WAY OT - Gotta love the tour idiots.

Dean in Burlington

>I agree totally with this article. Johan is the man. He is a genious DS who makes the other DS's look still....except Riis.....he's the only one on Johan's level and they will be battling for the Tour for years.

Greg....what do you think Disco is going to do for the tour next year? I know they are interested in Vinny. I don't think Popo is ready to beat Basso next year. Lance should come back and win an 8th!!!!!

Re: WAY OT - Gotta love the tour idiots.

#21

I've raced with George as well......

Andy Halterman: Arctic looking better all the time

>off road. He beat me by half a lap. The laps were 8 miles. I passed Fred Rodriguez with a flat 2 miles from the finish. He got it fixed and passed me back with about 1/4 mile to go. I still got 9th that day so I was in the money and happy.

I see George out on training rides in the winter. He comes up to the mtns. and hits the hills on a regular basis. He makes us mere mortals look rather slow by comparison.

Andy Halterman

No ride last night due to the ever constant rainfall here in Hendersonville, NC™

Re: WAY OT - Gotta love the tour idiots.

#22

Re: WAY OT - Gotta love the tour idiots.

Greg Sloop, Portland Oregon

>Who knows who will replace LA. I'm not even going to try to guess.

Re: Lance and eight. Lance has been *VERY*, *VERY*, *VERY* lucky. (I'd have even added more VERY's in there, but I think you get the point.) He's been so lucky as to be unbeliveable.

He's also been strong and had a strong team, but sheesh, seven tours, 19 days each! That's a lot of days without a disaster. (And that doesn't count some huge disaster during the ~345 days they aren't actually racing each year. That's around 2100 days.)

Lance has done well. He's been lucky. He's been stronger than everyone else. But there's a time for everything IMHO, and it appears his too, it's time for Lance to retire. It leaves a nice taste in everyone's mouth and frankly the way it has been this year is perfect for it.

One sees a possible fading in his strength, and the dominance of the team. It just seems natural to end it here.

---

There's a million good riders, but a LA type only comes around once in a while. I think we're likely to see winners, but we'll be waiting a while to see another Lance, IMHO. Perhaps it will happen in our lifetime, perhaps not. Cycling's neat, but there's lots more important things to do with life, though the TDF is a nice diversion in July. :)

Take what you get every day - cycling or not - be happy with it. Tomorrow will take care of itself, along with the TDF. :)

Cheers!

Greg

Re: WAY OT - Gotta love the tour idiots.

#23

Re: I've raced with George as well......

Dean in Burlington

>Yes he is fast. I raced with him in a race in Greenville called Dividing Waters. His brother runs it. He made us look pretty silly but he pulled out when the going got tough because he only wanted to train...not race.

Re: WAY OT - Gotta love the tour idiots.

#24

Re: WAY OT - Gotta love the tour idiots.

Dean in Burlington

>I agree. There won't be another LA. Maybe Greg Lemond though.

Re: WAY OT - Gotta love the tour idiots.

#25

Re: another LA

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>One thing you guys have neglected to mention is LA's huge engine, his heart and blood vessels pump way more than the average person. So you not only have to find someone with his discipline, etc., but also someone as physically advantaged.

Pam

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