John Reed Fox japanese tools workshop

Re: Shaptons & endurance

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Why don't the blades you sharpen with Shaptons keep their edges? What did you use to lengthen edge keeping>

Pam

Re: blade

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>There are reasons why a blade costs less to build than the holder for it. One, a blade is a rectangular flat peice of steel. And there are reasons why certain areas of a plane need to touch the wood when you are trying to cut it, mainly having to do with the fact that a plane will flex some from the pull of the iron. I don't mind if someone has certain preferences in woodworking, but when they satrt selling their way as the one best and only way to do things, I start having issues.

Re: John Reed Fox japanese tools workshop

Steve knight

>John also had a lot to say about various different types and brands of stones, and has tested them extensively, so I learned a lot, and discovered why my razor sharp chisels that were sharpened on shapton stones just don't stay sharp for very long.

I don't think any stone or sharpening method that gets a tool sharp could be blamed on edge retension. there is no mystery in sharpening. if you use a method that removes the scratches from the last grit if it is flat and if you go to the finest grit that that steel can support then the tool will work the same no matter what method you use.

as long as it meets the above factors. maybe you are not meeting the above factors and thats the isse. it took me a long tiem to face my sharpening issues and stop blaming the stones and blame myself.

Re: Shaptons & endurance

James Watriss

>As john explains it, it's a geometry thing... in a different sense than I'm used to. Basically, shaptons normally fracture into new, sharply geometrical patterns. So the microscopic scratches in the blade are angular in cross section, and make v-shaped notches where they meet at the edge. In engineering terms, this is called a stress riser, and leads to chips much faster than scratches that are more rounded. I've encountered this in machining circles, where they'll radius corners on things that will experience various stresses, so they don't crack or tear under load. What I've had to do is strop the hell out of my chisels, which puts small back-bevels on them, but keeps them from chipping back. It's more of an issue with japanese chisels and plane blades, due to the harder steel, but I imagine it's helped contribute to the frequent sharpening of my L-N chisels, too.

I've had better luck with Norton stones, but John has issues with their 1000 grit stone, and thinks it's way too course. That said, it should be understood that John's a fanatic about his blades. His planed surfaces are literally reflective, and on cedar, water will bead on the surface left by his planes. He's been doing this for close to 30 years, and he's pretty particular about some things. He uses a small 60x pocket microscope to inspect edges if he's not sure about the edge quality. But anyway...

John's recommendations were king stones, if you can't afford something natural. They're definately softer than the ceramic stuff, but he says that the bits in the slurry round over and help take the "edge" off of the stone grit, and the slurry will round off the grooves left by the stone, making for a smoother and stronger edge. Yes, they're soft, but if you keep after them, they don't get too out of flat, so it doesn't take too long to put them back. He personally uses a medium stone that's man-made from bits of natural stone dust, and finishes with a natural stone that was verye expensive when he bougth it, and is more so now... but the results are clearly worth it for him.

Re: blade

James Watriss

>He wasn't billing his way as the only way. But a blade isn't always just a rectangular piece of flat steel. In japanese terms, it's a thick piece of steel that isn't prone to getting sprung, and isn't prone to chatter, like a thinner blade is. They're also much harder steel, laminated to softer steel, which makes for good results. But even older english planes used thicker steel that was sometimes laminated, and usually tapered, so it was thicker at the leading edge, and less prone to flexing. It's true that it's much easier and cheaper to stamp a blade out of a ribbon of steel... but that was the point of John's rant. One of the main contrasts between western style planes and japanese style planes is the focus of attention. In a japanese plane, you're mostly paying for a very good blade, that's hand forged by blacksmiths that spend their entire lives learning to do it very well. In the case of western style planes, you're paying mostly for the apparatus that's been constructed to hold a blade steady.

Chip breakers came into being because the thin blades that stanley was making into a selling point were springy, and would flex under use. Stanley actually billed them way back when as being sharper and cutting better. Lie-nielsen and other companies since then have gone to thicker blades, which has helped, but the issue still remains that a thinner blade can bow under use. That's one of the reasons it's so hard sometimes to plane curly woods. With the blade under tension during use, the variances in grain orientation and resistance to cutting will cause reactions in the blade. I'm not saying it can't be done with western planes, but I had a much easier time doing it with my own japanese plane at the workshop. It planed as easily as the cedar we were taking test shavings on, and that without ANY tearout.

Ditto on end grain... With the blade sprung, it's pushing against the wood a little bit. When you're planing end grain, and you get close to the edge of the wood, the plane will pop off whatever's loose at the edge, making for some nasty blowout. I watched him use his own japanese smoother on end grain, with nothing more than a slight relief cut ahead of time, and no tearout on the opposite edge. And I did the same thing myself. Personally, I think that says more than it would from just him doing it... I was still getting used to maneuvering a block of wood without handles built into it, so you'd think that I'd have been more prone to getting tearout as a clumsy novice.

That's why Bevel up planes were invented for planing end grain. Where regular planes with the bevel down leave the length of the bevel out in the open, unsupported. With a 1/4" or thicker blade like a japanese blade, it's not as much of an issue, but when you have something that's only 3/32" thick, it's a little more problematic. With the bevel up, the plane bed will support the blade almost all the way down to the wood. Recent results in this forum will support that theory.

John concedes that western style planes will work, and like I said, he admits readily that Lie-Nielsen makes a very nice tool. For myself, after seeing what these things can do when properly tuned, I was speechless for about 2 days. It all goes against almost everything I thought I knew.

I'm only a comparative novice after my first semester at North Bennet, and I freely admit that there's a lot I don't know, and a lot of experience that I don't have. But as a beginner, that's part of what had me so jazzed about these planes... If I can plane highly figured maple with as little effort and as good result, that easily... If I can plane end grain with a regular smoothing plane without as much tearout as I'd normally have... If I can get the results I got as easily as I got them with these tools, then I think they're something to write home about.

Re: John Reed Fox japanese tools workshop

James Watriss

>I had much better results with other kinds of stones before I got to the shaptons. The edges I had from the Nortons seemed to hold up much better for me. I'm not claiming to be a sharpening genius, but I was sharpening pocket knives for roughly 10 years before I started doing chisels and planes 2 years ago. Hopefully that gets me out of the novice category, but then again I've learned a lot more since then, too, so maybe I'm just taking a long time to get it down.

I know a lot of people are having great luck with the shaptons, and they do take forever to go out of flat, which definatley helps. But the edge just wasn't holding up as long on my planes. Chisels it's hard to tell... chopping dovetails will dull most anything pretty fast. But in the end, I figured it was just me. Maybe it is, and I'm just making excuses. There are other reasons I don't really like the Shaptons... like cost, and that they're such a hassle to flatten when they do go out.

So in the end it may just be that I'm still just buzzing from the end of a very good workshop, and wanted to share what I thought was some amazing stuff. I'm sure I threw a lot of stones in people's ponds, and I was more trying to make a ripple than a wave or a splash, so I apologize if I got anyone wet.

Sorry folks

James Watriss

>Guess I ruffled some feathers in here. That wasn't really my intent. I was pretty jazzed up after this workshop, that's all. I spent all of last semester at North Bennet learning about the virtues of bailey planes, and how to properly sharpen things. And some of the things I learned this past week blew away some of the things I really thought I knew.

The blade in the plane I used wasn't really any sharper off the stone than other plane irons I've sharpened before, and I've spent a lot of time doing that lately, getting new-to-me planes tuned up and ready to use. But The results I got were way beyond what I thought I'd ever see, on some soft (cedar) and wild (highly figured curly maple) wood. Results that I really didn't think would be so dramatic, or so easy. Maybe it's not the Shapton stones, or the thicker blades, chances are it was just me. Maybe. I won't be abel to say for sure for another year or three, when I'll be able to look back and say "Yup, I was __________, and it showed."

So mostly it was just me getting carried away on a rave about a class that I enjoyed a lot. Sorry if I ruffled any feathers in here by doing so. I get carried away sometimes, I guess.

Re: blade

Warren in Lancaster, PA

>Thank you James for giving us this report and bringing up some important issues. I would quarrel with the statement about chipbreakers. They were around long before Bailey and Stanley. According to Charles Hummel, there was an advertisement by a Philadelphia planemaker for "double-iron'd planes of a late construction far exceding any tooth planes or uprights whatsoever for cross-grained or curled stuff" in the Pennsylvania Chronicle, 1767.

All Jazzed up

Todd O. Cronkhite Maine Native in FL. Exile :~(

>James,

I could tell that you was all jazzed up fromyour class and I enjoyed reading your post. I really don't beleive that the type of sharpening agent has anything to do with edge retention either tho. I do beleive that Japanese planes can be superior to out beloved Stanleys due to the thicker irons. While I was in Japan I had occasion to feel some lumber that some construction workers had planes and it was smooooooooooooooooooooooooooth, and the shaving where thin as air and I'm guessing full blade width. The workers didn't seem to keen on me mucking about in their work area, so I beat a hasty retreat. I wanted to take a shaving but decided not to take any on this day, fiquring that I'd get another opportunity, which I never did. :~(

At any rate, I'm happy that you had such a great time with John, and for sharing it with us. No question that you learned alot and saw some really cool stuff.

Heck, I was so jazzed up when I first made some nice curlies that I took some to work to show off and got the "Deer in the headlights" stare from my co-workers.

Todd O.

Re: Shaptons & endurance

Steve knight

>What you’re describing is what diamonds do. They are always sharp so they are always cutting. But the shaptons as far as I know the particles are not harder the stone is. It is compressed under really high pressure. The pro stones about twice the pressure as the regular stones.

I leave the slurry on them as they work faster that way.

I don’t notice my tools getting dull faster some of my chisels stay sharp a very long time.

I have worn out enough Norton stones to never want to go back to them. You say you don’t like to flatten a shapton but you will spend far more time overall flattening a Norton stone. I have worn out enough Norton stones to never ever want to go back to that route.

Re: blade

John Hoffman

>Yeah, glad you had a great time and got jazzed on woodworking. It is great to get infused with the art. Anyway, I recently posted about my visit to LN showroom. I was able to shave 1,000 off curly maple with all the planes in the showroom. Also, LN's blade is .140 (I think I got that right) so it is a lot thicker then the old Stanleys. Yes, the chipbreaker was basicly for stiffening the blade but the thick LN likely don't need it. As you can tell from some of the other posts this topic get's people's Irish up. If someone wants to carry around a loop and inspect thier edges God bless them. I can get the job done with some tear out on the jack, fix most of it with the 7 and hit it with the smoother and the piece is done. Is it the "quality" that a japanese woodworker could do and would it stand up to the micro loop inspection? I am too busy getting jazzed up on this art to take the time and compare.

Regards

JH

stones

john jesseph

>It sounds like you really had some major epiphanies. Great! I haven't gotten into Japanese tools, but I was reviewing Jim Kingshott's videos and was reminded that he had become a fan of Japanese planes and chisels.

I will have to say I have never heard of anyone saying that King stones were better than any other stones. I have some Nortons and Shaptons, and I think the biggest factor is not to move onto the next grit until you are totally done removing the scratch pattern from the previous grit, and don't make too big a jump between grits. You can even do an okay job with sandpaper (ducking!) if you follow those two guidelines, regardless of the scratch type...

Re: Shaptons & endurance *LINK*

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Thanks, James, very informative. You may want to read the Tool Sharpening message area at the Hiraide site ( http://www.ibiblio.org/japanwood/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=2&topicdays=0&start=50&sid=37a9a213189f0fd0e7f1ea93ca0f6761 ), particularly the "Curious" and "Stone to use for a given hardness blade" threads, especially daiku's and Jim Blauvelt's messages.

Also, LV probably still has some natural stones for a reasonable price, as these things go.

Pam

PS I really see no need to apologize for your original message, even if the barbarians are knocking at the gates.


LV natural finishing stones

Re: blade

James Watriss

>I agree with you... the thick LN blades are a huge improvement over the old stanley style blades. And really the biggest factor I'd found before this last week other than blade thickness was the size of the mouth. And while I do know that chip breakers have been around for a long time, I've also taken an abbreviated verson of Larry William's class on molding planes, and talked to him about planes in general... he's of the opinion that chip breakers caused more problems than they solved. In the case of my japanese plane, we tried to use the chip breaker, but all it did was clog up the mouth, it was so fine. Larry mentioned how some of their coffin smoothers have .001" mouths, so I'd imagine that's part of where his statement came from.

I guess part of my getting jazzed up was on seeing yet another take on hand planes, and how they work. They still fascinate me, both in design and construction, and I'm still poking around.

I've got a few old woodies lying around, one's a coffin smoother that needs some serious attention, and I've got a few old razee jointers that are fantastic. And a 22" Sorby fore plane. All of them have the tapered irons, and yes, all of em have chip breakers, too. But given that mouths do eventually open up over time with tuning up, a chip breaker is a simpler solution than spending the time patching the sole.

The blades John was looking at were being held under something stronger than just a loupe. A loupe is roughly 10X, I think, and his pocket microscope was something like 60X. He doesn't actually inspect all the time when he's sharpening, I think he was probably just using it as a solid way of demonstrating what sharp really looks like close up. Flaws that weren't visible at all with a loupe were felt very easily on the surface of some cedar we were planing, and they just barely showed up under the microscope.

Part of his rave was about the thickness, part of it was about the steel, and the craftsmanship involved. The good blacksmiths are apparently considered young and just hitting their stride when they're around 50 years of age, and usually have about 20 years before their work starts to deteriorate. There was some information John mentioned about how western metallurgists couldn't believe that a woodworking tool could be harder than 57 on the rockwell scale, or something like that, where the japanese tools are coming in at 62 or something like that. But the hardness test mostly involves pressing in a ball bearing, and doesn't necessarily measure toughness. Apparently there is more carbon added during the forge welding of the blade steel to the softer wrought iron used to thicken and back up the blade.

Etc, etc... it was a week long course, and doesn't make me anything resembling an expert. I was an english major in College, so I'll chase an argument down with the best of them, and I have some technical background, too, so I understand some of the mechanics involved with various stresses, but in the end, it was very interesting listening to John deconstruct some of the plane styles that were created in response to the thin blade steel that was being used. My own guess is that we have the feed screw and lateral adjust because the blades couldn't take being adjusted with a hammer like the old ones could. But watching him diagram what each cross section looked like, and why the "low angle," aka "block plane" aka "bevel up," planes offered more support was really revealing, particularly with some of the plane comparison posts and articles that are around in here. I do have the L-N LA Jack in the basement, I just haven't messed with it too much, since I've been busy with other planes. It'll get a lot more use now, I'm sure.

But there's still something that mystifying to me about a huge hand-forged blade wedged into a block of wood that makes a shaving like THAT. It's cool to me that with some precision in making the dai, (the block that holds the blade) and a little bit of attention to keeping the sole tuned, the plane can do as well or better than a lie-nielsen in moderately unskilled hands.

Re: Shaptons & endurance

James Watriss

>I'm going to dance around this as well as I'm able. Which may not be very well, I'm afraid, since I can be kind of a jack-ass sometimes. I've seen your work, and I respect you for that, if nothing else. It's all I know to judge you by, so far, and it's enough for me. So I'm not trying to pick a fight here, I'm just describing my own experiences.

I'll concede that nortons do take a lot of flattening. So do the King stones I was using for this class. It takes a minute or two out of every 5, and it can get messy, and I know that's one of the reasons people love the shaptons.

Part of my beef with the shaptons is the flattening plate. Whether from the factory or my own ham-handedness, I've never been able to get a stone really flat with it, and it finally occurred to me to check it for flatness. Well, sure enough, it wasn't flat. I'll take the blame since I have no way of knowing if it came from the factory that way or not, cast iron has a mind of its own sometimes. But either way, at least with the nortons I can flatten them with sandpaper on a granite block that cost me much less than my shapton plate did. The block also has a larger surface area, and that may be how the shapton plate got rounded over... I was probably just going a wee bit too far over the edge of a cast iron thing that's supposed to be flattening a stone that's used to abrade metal. (I think I mentioned that I'm a jackass somewhere, didn't I?) But at the end of the day, $30 can get me fresh flattening stuff that will fix my norton stones in less time than it'll take me to make the money to either replace or repair my shapton plate, which I'm still none too keen on because it's small, and it either came or went out of flat inside of a couple of months (at the outside) to begin with.

I'm sure this is where I'd normally get the lecture about novice hands destroying masterwork tools, and how I just don't know what I'm doing, and that may be true. It's why I drool over, and will probably never buy, one of your planes... I'd be terrified of screwing it up somehow. I do realize that there are some things that require a more delicate or experienced touch, and the school of hard knocks is almost as expensive as Harvard sometimes. But here I am, and life is what it is. And, (and I say this with all respect to your experience) I've still found that the edges I ground with my norton stones lasted longer. Maybe that's a quirk of my own skill level, and I'm just not skilled or experienced to make proper use of the shaptons.

BUT, this whole shindig kicked off when I mentioned that John didn't like shaptons, and that (I thought) that explained why my Norton edges held up better. Still, if you look back, I also mentioned that John doesn't think too much of Norton either. So, make of that what you will. I read something by (I think) Toshio Odate, who wrote that in many cases, one must find the right stone for each tool, and that some stones just don't work as well as others on the same tool. I've also heard people say that in many cases it's not always the manufacturer that determines if a certain tool is "the best," but how it performs in the hands of the end user. Maybe it's something like that. Maybe not, I don't know. Either way, I own shaptons, Nortons, King stones... and I'm broke because of it. But I'm still trying to try new things in the hopes that I find something that works better, in my hands if not in yours.

Whatever makes the wood sing.

With deepest respect,

Have a good night. (or day, depending.)

Re: Shaptons & endurance

Steve knight

>Yes it is a pain that you can't use sandpaper on them. I finally had gotten a deal on the drywall sandpaper on eBay and the day after I got it I got the shapton stones and found that it did not work well (G)

I think the lap plate was flat but you screwed it up. Now hold on a sec I did the same thing. The problem is that if you use something that wears if you don’t do it right it will wear unevenly. You have to work on the ends of the stones with the middle of the lap.

If you just rub them together you end up with two tools with humps in the middle. This is because when you sharpen you wear out the middle before the ends. So when you flatten the ends of the stone cut before the middle.

This happens if you used another stone to rub against the original the way the Japanese would flatten them.

So to keep the lap plate flat you have to work the middle atleast as much as doing long strokes. The only way to get away from that is use a diamond stone to flatten them.

Once I had realized what I was doing wrong I fixed the lap and it has been flat ever since.

Now as far a screwing up my planes I try to make them idiot proof (G) anymore if you did not throw my planes around or drop them all the time how are you going to mess one up?

Re: blade

Steve knight

>I agree we sure blew it in the quality iron race.

That’s why I worked so hard to get Japanese irons made to fit a normal plane. But they cost more then I want them too. Most people don’t need a hand forged iron. If I could get a machine made iron that was laminated but made with good edge steel and heat treated very well for 50.00 or less it would be a very good thing. It would blow away the A-2 blades but be an improvement.

Re: Shaptons & endurance

James Watriss

>Hi Pam,

Thanks for the link to the Haraide site. The "curious" thread was long, but informative. (you're pampine, I take it?) Some of what I read jibed with what I knew, some with what I've been taught but haven't learned yet, and the rest, well... I guess I should bookmark that thread pretty soon, before I lose track of this thread.

I'll check back on all of this in a day or two. I don't know about whether I should or shouldn't apologize for any number of reasons, but one of the joys for me in coming here is that there's a large collection of people who know much more than I do. One of these days I'll manage to ditch the english-major habit of assuming an authoritative tone in my writing, as that seems to be part of my problem. Arguing is just in my nature. But better for me, I'd think, to hang around once in a while with the "barbarians," since I'm pretty sure they all have something to teach me.

g'night all.

James

Re: blade

James Watriss

>I don't know if you've tried these yet...

http://japanwoodworker.com/dept.asp?dept_id=12943

They're billed as "laminated" blades using blue steel, fit for regular bailey style and record planes. $40 is more than the $25 for a LN A2 blade, for sure, but not too much more?

Re: blade

Steve knight

>don't know if you've tried these yet...

http://japanwoodworker.com/dept.asp?dept_id=12943

They're billed as "laminated" blades using blue steel, fit for regular bailey style and record planes. $40 is more than the $25 for a LN A2 blade, for sure, but not too much more?

from the reports I have seen they are not much better. a good iron will show up better in a wooden plane on an infill.

oops I checked I was thinking that was the samuri blade.

I should get one and see how well it works. I would nto want that style in my planes and I would prefeer a thicker iron.

Re: Shaptons & endurance

James Watriss

>Well, I dunno about throwing or dropping, but one of my nicknames is captian chaos. Another is "the worst person ever."

Maybe one day, but until I can get my sharpening to the level it should be (I think it's actually pretty good, but there are always the voices in my head to tell me I can do better, and they're usually right) I don't think I'd do justice to your work. It's one thing for me to spend $50 on ebay on an old stanley plane, and tune it up. Flatten this, scrape that, silicon carbide to bed the frog, and bevel the front of the mouth... before you know it, it works great, but a collector would be wiping the poop out of his pants after watching me put a file to a classic. It's another thing entirely to think about buying a handmade piece of masterwork, without knowing what I do or don't need to do to, or for it.

I still have to tune my old mathieson (just lapping and sharpening, don't worry) and try to get my growing fleet of wooden planes up to speed. Next I have to finish my molding planes from the Williams workshop. (5 days of work in a weekend, so I didn't quite get it all done.) I took pictures to write an article here on how to make a transitional plane actually work, so I should get around to that. Then I want to try hammering out a coffin smoother, to see if I can do it. After that, I'll probably do it again to see if I can "get it right this time," etc.

All that, on top of getting my tool chest done at school this fall, working, and getting my home shop in a better place than it is now... It's going to be a great summer and fall. :)

Maybe "screw up" is an excessive way to put it. But I don't think, until I've tried my own hand a few times at plane making, and used a few more, for a lot longer, that I'd be in a proper place to really appreciate your work.

Re: Shaptons & endurance

Steve knight

>Eye’s are rolling all over the place. Masterpiece?? I sure don't see my tools in museums yet. Some of them are butt ugly. Since I have only made less then 3000 I have a ways to make master.

It's ALL about the blade

Jim Reed @ Tallahassee

>a plane is merely a blade holder.

Re: John Reed Fox japanese tools workshop

Doug in Leawood KS

>James,

Thank you for your post. It is inspiring to read about a good teacher and a good listener with an open mind. I am a self-taught woodworker (like most of us) and envy the decades of experience you are exposed to at North Bennet Street School. Maybe next summer I can take a class as inspiring as the one you had.

I am glad you provided food for thought. I have a nice set of Japanese chisels and a Japanese plane, which I haven't used very much. I'm not sure why. I was mentally headed down the "Gotta buy an infill kit one of these days", but your post has inspired me to go back to the Japanese plane and get to know it better. Thank you!