frame and panel cabinet backs

Re: frame and panel cabinet backs

Alan Bierbaum

>The short answer is maybe.

The long answer is that it depends on frame member size, wood type, and environment. Most North American hardwoods (i.e., Maple, Oak, etc) will move about 1/4" per foot across flatsawn grain (about 1/8" per for across quartersawn grain)from dry to very humid conditions. If the frame is made of 2" flatsawn pieces; the movement with moisture is across 4" of wood and may not be a problem with quarterswn frame members.

I did several hundred kitchen remodels when I was working full time and found that door hanging required some consideration for moisture related movement. A pair of doors hung with hinges on the outer edges required a gap of at least 1/8" in order to not swell shut in the wet season (the doors were always at 6-8% moisture content). We used 2 1/4" frames. So two doors was 4 frame members or 9" of wood. If the customer had a swamp cooler, anything less than a 1/8" gap would result in a service call to unstick doors within a week or two of turning the swamp cooler on.

Re: frame and panel cabinet backs

Wiley Horne

>Hi Mark,

Alan is all over this one, but here's a coupla thoughts. You're gonna let the panels themselves float in the frames. In my climate (which is pretty mild), I leave 1/16" approx. all around, so that each panel has 1/8" of movement in any direction before it starts bearing on the stiles or rails. Now if it's a large back, like for a chest of drawers or bookcase, I will make it in at least two bays across and down--again, this works for my climate, but if you live where you're getting 1/4" of movement per foot, you might need further subdivision into 3 or 4 bays for a large case.

The frame itself can be fairly tight in its rabbet, because all the grain will be aligned around the back of the case--no cross grain movement at the outer edges of the frame.

Wiley

Re: frame and panel cabinet backs

Alan Bierbaum

>"The frame itself can be fairly tight in its rabbet, because all the grain will be aligned around the back of the case--no cross grain movement at the outer edges of the frame. "

Very true; however the original poster said frame and panel set into a rebate. The frame members do enter into the equation then.

I tend to leave 1/8" each side of panels and keep panels to less than 18" in width. I also pin, or fix the center of the panel to keep it from moving around. For case backs, I normally use shiplap.

Alan

Re: frame and panel cabinet backs

markb

>Thanks, Alan, Wiley. "Maybe" was my thought as well, due to potential movement in the rails and stiles.

If I were going to have a separate top applied to the top of the carcase, I was thinking it might be a good idea to add a tongue to the outside of the outer rails and stiles and slide them into grooves in the top and bottom of the carcase and have the whole panel assembly float. Since the top of the carcase will be the top of the cabinet, I'll probably put grooves in the carcase and put vertical panels and stiles in after assembly, much as one would put in a sliding door.

Thanks again, folks.

Re: frame and panel cabinet backs

markb

>Alan -

By shiplap, do you mean you put shiplapped boards next to each other in a rabbeted back?

Shiplapped back

Alan Bierbaum

>Yes. The following two pictures show the process. I jsut grabbed the first two pictures that I found; do not nit pick the pics.

For historical pieces, I use cut nails. For the pictured piece, I used three screws in each back board. The back boards shown are 3/8" thick (rewawn from 5/4 maple).

Golly Adam...

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>Your sure got a lot of tailed helpers...;^)

Re: Golly Adam...did you Alan?

Alan Bierbaum

>If you are talking about me: yes I do.

When you make a living from woodworking; you use the fastest means to get the job done. When you reach my age (67) you use tailed helpers for all of the grunt work and save the hand tools for fun or special operations. I use both and I use a lot of hand tools(that dark rack in the back of the picture holds about 60 molding planes (yes I do use them). One of the pictured drills (metal case) is over 30 years old !

I don't get it

Adam Cherubini

>Mark,

What's with the grooves again? Are you really redsigning carcass joinery? Why can't you nail on backer boards like everybody else? Frame and panel is a lot of work.

Maybe you can send us a sketch of what you have in mind.

Adam

(not Alan, but I hope to be someday!)

Re: frame and panel cabinet backs

Norman (Metcalfe, Ont.)

>I made a Krenov type cabinet this spring using the frame and panel back.

The members, rails and stiles are cherry, the panel veneered maple.

The frame and panel is inset into the carcase completely with rabetting on the inside of the carcase panels. The veneered panel within the frame is floating within the rails and stile grooves with a reasonable gap.

So far so good, I'm assuming any expansion of the frame members, rails and stiles, will be towards the panel anf the gap within the panel groove should take care of this. Also the rails and stiles of the rear frame are fairly narrow since it is purely aesthetic stlying at this point.

I did ponder over this for a while when designing the cabinet.

It's been done before succesfully, so I went ahead.

A very nice cabinet and just apply a simple panel to the back , rabetted or grooved? Without a frame, it just doesn't feel right.

Norman

Re: I don't get it

Alan Bierbaum

>I have seen "old" furniture with a frame and panel back. Really, it does exist.

"Adam

(not Alan, but I hope to be someday!) "

Be glad that you don't get everything that you hope for; count your blessings.

Re: I don't get it

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>Sometimes, you have an application for a cabinet that you are not going to push up against a wall. In these cases, frame and panel gives the back a "finished" look.

Yeah, but Scott

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

>One of them there in the front of one photo is a shiny aluminum Cro-Magnon tailed helper, so he gets a partial pass.

what about gluing it?

Tom Sontag - St. Louis

>I agree with the gist of the responses so far about movement, but nobody has risen up to question gluing in the back. I am trying to imagine when and why that would be appropriate or needed. Okay, you eliminate screws or nails, but if a reasonably closed type cabinet I think you might prefer to be able to remove the back. If this is one of those controversial pins-or-tails-first type questions, just say so.

Re: what about gluing it?

markb

>Nails and screws are ugly. And why would I want to remove the back? Even if I did, I wouldn't try to if I had used nails to attach it.

Re: frame and panel cabinet backs

markb

>Did you glue or nail the frame in?

Re: I don't get it

markb

>Adam -

Nah, the last thing I want to do is redesign carcase joinery. But since the back of the cabinet will be visible, it seems a frame and panel back would be a lot more attractive than nailed boards.

I'd do a sketch, but I can't draw for beans, and even if I did I don't have any way of posting a sketch. But I'll try to better explain what I'm talking about.

As an example, If a cabinet were 12" deep, I'd make the sides and bottom the full 12", but the top 11.25". 1/4" in from the back of the cabinet, I'd make a 1/4" wide groove in the sides and bottom. Assuming the simplest frame (2 stiles, 2 rails and 1 panel), the stiles would have the expected groove on one edge for the panel, but also have appropriately sized tongues on the other sides. The rails would have a tongue opposite the groove. This way the carcase could be assembled first and the assembled panel slid in from the top afterwards. I would make the entire panel a smidge small to give it room to expand into the grooves in the carcase. Another board with a groove in the appropriate place would be attached to the top of the carcase.

The other approach I referred to would consist of all four carcase components being the same size and being grooved the same distance from the rear. The bottom groove would be shallower than the top groove. Then, vertical tongue as well as grooved "stiles" (as described above, but the bottom tongue would be shorter than the top tongue) and panels could be inserted one at at time after carcase assembly by inserting them in the top groove first and then dropping into the bottom groove, kind of like Japanese or Japanese-ish sliding doors are installed. The last stile would need to be rabbetted to accept the panel instead of grooved. Not quite frame and panel, but I think attractive anyway.

Clear yet? And I appreciate your trying to understand and not just scratching your head and moving on.

Mark

(not Adam, but I hope to be someday!)

Re: what about gluing it?

Warren in Lancaster, PA

>Traditional case pieces are designed to be taken apart. Usually the back is the first thing removed when the case is taken apart for repairs. Often there is no rabbet at the bottom so it is easy to pry the boards off; sometimes the same nails are put back in the same holes. Most frame and panel backs I've seen have been screwed on. It might look better if you use nice screws. If you make furniture with glues that don't come apart you might be making something that is junked if it needs repair.

makes perfect sense, thanks

markb

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