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Brief Veritas heavy smoother follow-up

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Brief Veritas heavy smoother follow-up

#1

Brief Veritas heavy smoother follow-up

Greg Sloop, Portland Oregon

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I've spent a couple more hours with the two planes in the last couple of days.

Since I really didn't notice the handles on either plane - my impression has always been they are perfectly good.


But since Lyn pointed it out, and Alf chimed a "me too!" I thought I'd pay particular attention to them.


As you can see from these two pictures, the angles and such of the two are different. (Smoother on top, as marked...)



The Smoother's spur appears to me to be a larger angle. IMHO, it's better than the Jack.

When the jack is right up next to me, sometimes the spur can kind of dig into the top of my wrist.

The extra relief on the smoother takes away this issue. (However, it's a terribly minor issue for me.)




Also, it appears that the smoother is canted forward less than the Jack.(Smoother on top, as marked...)


The only potential improvement in either design that I can surmise, would be a more rounded back and front. (More elliptical curve, rather than straight?)

This might make it seem more natural, though again unless Lyn sends me one of those Stephen Thomas smoothers I'll never know.

(Hint-hint, nudge-nudge - Yeah, right, what have I been smoking huh - it *is* Oregon you know?!)



I should make a couple of additional points that I forgot last post.


The Veritas/LV planes have lateral adjust. None of the LN low angle planes do that I'm aware of. (I've personally used the 164 and once owned the 62.)

While lateral adjust certainly isn't a needed feature for me, some might like it, and I'd assume it couldn't hurt to have.

If you're like me and don't care, than either LV or LN will do fine for you.

If you'd like lateral adjust, then I'd strongly recommend the Veritas/LV low angle planes. I can't say enough good things about the adjuster. Very low lash, excellent, smooth action. Really a charm to use. The LN adjuster versions are not terrible by any means, but IMHO, they're not in the same class.




I think that does it for now. Comments or requests welcome.



Cheers,

Greg



(Sorry for the weird spacing, it's my HTML editor, but I'm too lazy, and it's too late tonight, to fix it.)




Re: Brief Veritas heavy smoother follow-up

#2

Tote considerations: technical

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>Heres a bit of expansion on the differences betweent the older style and the new handles.

There is not a lot of difference on the rear "push" side of the tote compared to the earlier version. Overall, the new style tote is a little taller (about a half inch) because Lee Valley added the toe at the front of the tote, and raised the overall height a bit.

My complaint is that they have added a belly at the front of the tote , or as they would explain it, they have "contoured the front to better match the natural grip of the fingers." I disagree with the better match part.

Before getting detailed about it, let me put my criticisms into a larger perspective. It seems to me that a Western tote design must address two related issues: One, it must allow for the most efficient application of force to drive the plane in a forwards and slightly downward direction; Two, it must allow for the most anatomically and physiologically sound application of force. The first involves such things as making sure the direction of application of force is consistent with direction the plane needs to go (e.g, the the tote is centered on the plane and has a bit of a angle so force is directed downwards as well as forward), and having the force be directed as close as possible to the center of gravity of the plane body,which in turn needs to be as close as possible to the level of the cutting edge (e.g., the gripping area of the handle shouldn't be far up above the center of gravity of the plane body). The second involves allowing the alignment of the joints to be the most stable, and the muscles to be most efficiently used.

Now all of this is more complicated when one considers that a tote is going to be gripped by hands of different size (though palm width is fairly consistent, length of fingers and thickness of hands and fingers isn't), and that the height at which one planes relative to body size may vary considerably (even if the bench height is consistent, the distance the planing surface rises above the bench may differ according to size and type of project). Thus, a good tote desing must allow for variation in grip.

So, my complaints with the new LV tote:

Raising the height of the gripping area of the tote, even though slight, means the gripping area is now higher than before with respect to the center of gravity of the plane, and there fore the application of force is farther from the cutting edge. More technically what this means is that for the same stance and grip, there is now a small, but significant (at least for me) decrease in the downward force vector of the pushing hand, at most typical planing heights. The upside is that it is slightly nicer to have the lower finger nestled against a wooden toe, and it gives a bit more clearance of the hand above the work surface (the latter never having been a problem for me).

The older tote offered a bit more hand space than the new one. This allowed many, and specifically me, to move my hand up and down the tote slightly to generate different gripping angles. Not only would this have helped deal with the new height changes, but it allows anyone to more easily align the body for different planing heights. This is a significant issue, as again I will say that we do not plane at a consistent height for all our projects. For example, there will be times when one needs to plane the side of a box or drawer at a higher position than would be optimal, at other times we will be working on the surface of a table or desk that is resting on its own legs. I found the old handle accommodated these gripping angle changes better than the new one, and for that matter, beter than the more sharply angled Lie-Nielsen totes.

This is all exacebated by the protruding belly now added to the front of the tote. This has changed the front of the tote from a slightly concave shape to a convex shape. This belly tends to force the hand to the center of the tote (vertically), which may be fine for a hand which fills the entire tote, but forces hands of smaller size to ride higher than necessary, and makes it less comfortable to vary grip height to achieve differences in wrist and forearm alignment. I suspect that those whose hands have always fully filled the tote will find the new tote as good or superior to the old one, for most others, this is a regressive design.

I'll add another complaint about this belly. While the most efficient and ergonomic appliction of force is in a line consistend with direction of plane travel (i.e, your wrist and forearm are in alignment with the force, and your shoulder joint is right behind them), this is not always practical when planing large flat surfaces like tables and desks. Sometimes you need to grip a bit from the side. The more oval the tote, and the more bellied the tote, the less accommodating the tote will be to these necessary changes of grip. Even wonder why the best front knobs tend to be round, it's because we grip the front knob more or less from the side. A tote needs to accomodate this as well. An example of a tote style that is excellent in accommodating this is the yoke tote on Continental style planes like the ECE Primus.

Some of the R&D folks at LV are enamored by this new grip style because it mimiks a style on some new power drills. I'd say that a power drill handle is a very poor model on which to design a tote handle. Just consider for yourself how differently the forces are between the two.

I could go on quite a bit more on this, but I've probably worn through on you patience already. Let me just close with this. If you want to know how a vertical style tote should be shaped, remove your existing tote, take a couple of sticks of modeling clay into your hand, then assume a planing stance and place your hand on the plane as you would grip a tote. Squeeze lightly to form the clay into the shape your hand would really like to take. I am quite confident that the shape you view when releasing the clay will bear little resemblence to the shape of the new LV tote, or most other totes for that matter. Maybe some day, will be able to have the option of thermoform handles that truly custom fit for our hands. I keep saying it and maybe someday it will become true, the next big advancement in plane design is going to be in the area of ergonomics. In the meantime, you can use the clay technique to guide you in modifying the wooden grips found on your current plane.

Re: Brief Veritas heavy smoother follow-up

#3

Re: Tote considerations: technical

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>Excellent insight, Lyn. I learned some important concepts from your explanation. I was going to suggest the "belly" on the front of the tote would help when lifting the plane between strokes, because the grip force would be less, but now I see that the restraint on grip angle is more important. Just as it is not a power drill, a plane is not a hand saw, either, in which the effective grip angle is not so critical.

Your clay or thermoform idea does not seem to solve the problem of a variable grip angle, either horizontally or vertically, unless the tote could reform every time you changed your grip. It would be an educational exercise, as a place to start with a truly ergonomic custom grip.

I've noted a couple of manufacturers have suggested providing roughly shaped grips that could be taken down to a custom shape by the user. The problem with that idea is that most users, even those who think they know what they want, often do not have the insight that you do into what it is that they really need. Again, thanks for the enlightenment.

Re: Brief Veritas heavy smoother follow-up

#4

Re: Tote considerations: technical

Alice Frampton, UK

>Some of the R&D folks at LV are enamored by this new grip style because it mimiks a style on some new power drills.

Ohhh, so that's it. Maybe that can explain why I find it slightly less uncomfortable if I point my forefinger as if I was reaching for a trigger. Unfortunately, on a bevel-up plane, there's nowhere for it to go.

Also, just for clarification of the "me too" in Greg's post; yes, I did find similar issues as Lyn, but totally independantly of him.

Cheers, Alf

Re: Brief Veritas heavy smoother follow-up

#5

Re: Tote considerations: technical

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>"Your clay or thermoform idea does not seem to solve the problem of a variable grip angle, either horizontally or vertically, unless the tote could reform every time you changed your grip. It would be an educational exercise, as a place to start with a truly ergonomic custom grip."

You're right, it only addresses a more optimal grip shape, and I should have said more.

The ultimate "ergo" tote as I presently conceive it, would be fitted to the hand, have a shelf/groove to accomodate the thumb (moving it towards the top of the tote), and would fit around a stalk connected to the sole by a ball and socket joint that would allow changes in vertical and horizontal angle as well as rotation. The grip would have a palm "trigger" that when gripped with modest force would lock the ball and socket into a fixed position. The greatest drawback to this, other than manufacturing cost, would be that one would likely have to have separate right and left hand totes to interchange on the stalk.

Re: Brief Veritas heavy smoother follow-up

#6

Re: Tote considerations: technical

John K in Hastings, MN

>Such a device would be tough to make both easy to adjust and difficult to slip under hand force with significant leverage.

I vote for using a rasp and sandpaper to fit the tote to your preference, or making your own.

Re: Brief Veritas heavy smoother follow-up

#7

Re: Tote considerations: technical

MikeW

>Hi Lyn,

For the LV tote, the whole customization thing is also complicated by the twin hold-down bolt issue. Though one could design a more comfortable tote (hint, someone who already posted has made one successfully) it is difficult to accomplish.

Maybe we could hold a LV tote redesign contest--one that actually has to be bolted to the plane and send a link to Rob...

Like the unnamed re-toter, I have been fiddling around with a new design too. One that could be easily retrofit to the existing LV planes...If those pesky commissions would just go away long enough I could post what I have and where it's going.

Ok, I was kidding about commissions going away. I need them. But I'll try to get something up in the near future.

MikeW

Re: Brief Veritas heavy smoother follow-up

#8

Re: What kind of wood in the background?

George in Lowell, Mich.

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Re: Brief Veritas heavy smoother follow-up

#9

Re: Tote considerations: technical

Greg Sloop, Portland Oregon

>I vote for the clueless dolt approach. It works ok for me, I know nothing better, and I don't yet have RSI, so it must be ok? Right, right?!?!

Thanks for the discussion Lyn. I found it enlightening, and interesting. Some facets I hadn't considered.

Cheers,

Greg

Re: Brief Veritas heavy smoother follow-up

#10

Re: What kind of wood in the background?

Greg Sloop, Portland Oregon

>Quarter-sawn American Sycamore.

What you see is moderate grain pattern for QS Sycamore. The pattern you see there is from the rings running a little more toward 90 degrees. The most wild pattern, like lacewood, is when the rings are approching parallel to the surface.

As an aside...

Like lacewood, the "cells" (I think that's what they're called.) are hard-ish but the space between them is very soft. This area is super easy to tear out. 40-50 and even 55 degrees total cut angle is inadequate to get excellent surfeace finish. (It's not that the wood is hard and brittle, it isn't - it's just that it interlocks with underlying structure and just rips out.)

This is what makes the bevel up planes so versitile, IMHO. I have multiple bevel angles and use the 65 degree (total cut angle) one on stuff like this to get good finish. If you even touch it with say, 37 degree total angle, you might as well use a standard screw-driver and a hammer - you'll get about equal surface finish. Even 45 degrees is only a little better unless you use every trick I know about. Even then it's still pretty terrible.

Cheers,

Greg

Re: Brief Veritas heavy smoother follow-up

#11

Beating my dead horse

Adam Cherubini

>Never tried any of these toted LV planes.

Must say, I've been finding heel pressure helpful lately. I talked to Mack Headley about it and he said the same thing. I know I've mentioned it here before. There's something about the way you control the board under the plane. Likewise I've been pulling with my toe hand. So my heel hand is currently flat on the back of the (wooden) plane, fingers on one side, thumb hooked behind the tote. (try it if you have a wooden plane handy)

Anyway, with all of the thought LV puts into every aspect of their tools, I wonder if they ever thought about a new (very old) tote design? It certainly would set them apart. I'm thinking of a metal infill plane like a roman plane with a handle like an M-16.

One more thing- as an engineer, I would think raising the center of pressure of the tote would increase toe pressure. As a woodworker, I can't think it would make any difference.

Adam

P.S. The modern Neo-roman infill is my second piece of advice for LV R&D. The first was a injection molded plastic bodied version of wooden dadoes, rabbets and moldies. I just can't figure out why Rob isn't sending me conracts to sign and a 6 figure salary offer? And what did he mean when he said "I'll make plastic planes as soon as you start making 18th century reproductions out of MDF". What's MDF? Is it one of those exotic jungle woods?

Re: Brief Veritas heavy smoother follow-up

#12

Re: It's Alive!

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>Like this one, perhaps? :^)


Not exactly MDF, but Garolite™ is even better. Further, if you are doing a little remodeling, and happen to encounter a live wire, it is a very good dielectric.

My apologies to anyone whose sensibilities I have managed to offend by the upsidedown blade.

BTW, Taunton Press (of F?WW fame) once published, in one of their Design Books, IIRC, a Chippendale lowboy executed in particleboard. Maybe that's where I got the inspiration for my bench top? [Don't try this at home.] I find it at least as unsatisfactory as you do yours.

Tongue planted firmly in cheek, on the Cohansey

Re: Brief Veritas heavy smoother follow-up

#13

EE-GADS!

adam Cherubini

>You should warn folks before posting pictures like that. You may have to censor yourself. That's horrible. I do like the Greg Sloop BU scraper rabbet aspect to it.

Adam

Re: Brief Veritas heavy smoother follow-up

#14

Steve Kubien

Hey, there may be children watching this!!!!

Steve Kubien

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Re: Brief Veritas heavy smoother follow-up

#15

That's disgusting

Scott Burr in absoutly sweet Ben Lomond,CA

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Re: Brief Veritas heavy smoother follow-up

#16

Re: EE-GADS!

Greg Sloop, Portland Oregon

>But there won't be any tear out in those rabbets now will there! Bah!

So there.

(I'm gonna go eat worms now...)

Cheers,

Greg

Re: Brief Veritas heavy smoother follow-up

#17

Re: It's Alive!

Joe Rogers, Northern Virginia

>Oh My Sir Will...not another Garolite(tm) controversy!!!:-)JR

Re: Brief Veritas heavy smoother follow-up

#18

Beat me to it!

Todd Hughes

>and I was all ready for those bad "Garish" plastic jokes. What ever happened to that miracle material Steve?....I heard that LN bought it all up just to keep it out of the hands of competing plane makers !....Todd

Re: Brief Veritas heavy smoother follow-up

#19

Re: It's Alive!

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>As far as I'm concerned, the Head Badger really went off the deep end on that one. In censoring the technical discussions along with the good humored kidding, he set back amateur toolmaking by about five years in my estimation. This stuff has some very interesting properties that really need to be investigated more deeply and in a much broader context than just plane bodies. Now, everyone is afraid to even mention the subject, much less actually make a garolite saw handle or a plane tote or a router body or a chisel handle or even an infill. To this day, even WoodFinder refuses to list sources of timber from the garolite tree. You'd think it was an endangered species or something.

Re: Brief Veritas heavy smoother follow-up

#20

Re: It's Alive!

Bob Hackett

>Those trees were all transplanted to the same island that the last remaining naugas were relocated to after the `80`s naugahide furniture craze.It drove them to the edge of extinction.

Luckily the men of vision in Detroit were able to cross the naugas with weasels and then farm raise the hybreds to be used for car interiors.We still have that DNA we can tap if we get careless again.

Mainely,Bob (taking the short bus for a spin this morning.Now where`s my tin foil hat?)

Re: Brief Veritas heavy smoother follow-up

#21

Re: Tote considerations: technical

Roger Nixon

>Hmmm, Lyn. Sounds like you could just cut the grip off a Colt 1911 and use the grip safty to lock the tote in position. The magazine release would allow the user to switch righty & lefty grips :).

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