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Towards a model for writing tool reviews.

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Towards a model for writing tool reviews.

#1

Towards a model for writing tool reviews.

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>It is my intention to post reviews of LV tools in the near future and I am concerned about the reception these will receive. I have recently taken possession of the Bevel Up Smoother and Scrub Plane, plus I am in the process of putting together a more formal review of the LV Honing Guide, which will include tips for users (since all I have posted to date have been impressions). These tools were all given to me by Lee Valley with no strings attached other than to provide them with feedback. While they do not vet my reviews, it is understandable that some will question the objectivity of a review written under these circumstances.

The question I raise is what do I need to do to gain the trust of forum readers, that is, that the information I offer be accepted as objective and reliable? This is partly rhetorical since I hope to make a few suggestions for discussion, but I do want to hear the opinion of you my friends on this forum.

One issue that must be dealt with first is what my motivation is for writing reviews in the first place. The answer to this is partly that I have a intellectual interest in the design of handtools and a scientist’s pursuit of knowledge, and partly that I enjoy the comradeship that comes from discussion that is centred on a common topic. Long before I was offered planes for testing by Rob Lee, I was reporting my experiences on woodworking websites. I did this for the same reasons most of you do so – it is fun. And for formal reviews to continue, it must continue to be fun.

My own background is essentially that of a scientist. By profession I am a clinical psychologist, and work involves making decisions about the information my clients and other health professionals give me. The issue of objectivity is central to everything I do. I am constantly assessing and checking information, always looking at it from a different perspective. This is the nature of the job, and the nature of my professional training.

The issue of bias came up a while ago, and several of us agreed that it was not possible to be without a bias. What is important is to recognise this bias and do what you can to control for it. Am I biased about Lee Valley – you bet I am. I believe that they are one of the best things that have happened to the woodworking world, especially weekend warriors such as myself. They are innovators in the area of design and committed to producing high quality handtools at an affordable price. This is not advertising copy on their behalf – it is how I feel about this company based on my experiences to date. Ever since Rob Lee offered me a LV LA Jack to compare with the Stanley #62 I restored (see Articles for a copy of the paper I wrote), I have been a convert to the bevel up design. Back then I predicted that it was the coming force in plane design. I am excited to be able to participate a little (very much on the very far periphery) in the ongoing development. Am I biased? Are you kidding?

So now the question is, what do I do to bring matters back to an objective level? I know that I will not learn anything new unless I do so, and be incapable of passing on anything useful to others. I need to introduce rules into the reports I write, rules that are fundamental to the scientific pursuit of knowledge. These are the rules I have come up with:

Rule 1: All methods must be capable of being replicated by others. In practical terms, specify the tools used, how and to what level the blades were sharpened, the timber used and, as best as possible, the techniques used.

Rule 2: Record all the results in objective format, that is, in a numerical system or photographic illustrations that make it easy to interpret and gain meaning from the data.

Rule 3: A scientific study requires a comparison of different systems (e.g. handplanes). The “control” system needs to be something that has known, predictable results (e.g. a commonly used handplane). One cannot draw fair conclusions about the tool under investigation unless a comparison is made with a control. Without the control, one is only able to offer a subjective observation.

The bottom line is that results must be demonstrated clearly that they are measurable or identifiable to the satisfaction of the reader. I believe that it is only then that reviews will be considered objective.

It is possible to write fantastic reviews without consciously following the above rules. Alf is one of those rare, natural writers who is able to convey a clear message in her reviews, and these are a wonderful mix of humour and illustration. It would be such a waste to ignore her talents here. There are, no doubt, other amateur writers who could do an equally good job given the opportunity.

My interest in writing this is to open the topic up for discussion. It is to the benefit of all of us that we have reviews and discussion – this is just a hobby for most of us, but we do get so passionate and emotional.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: Towards a model for writing tool reviews.

#2

Your concern is legitimate

Denis Chénard, Orléans, Ont.

>I figure you've read the thread below...

Here are a few ideas that I hope will help:

- Full disclosure is paramount. You already know that.

- Comparison with established products would help "locate" the tool in the desirability scale. For instance, if the "standard" for smoothing planes is considered to be a LN #4, then compare the LV smoother with the LN. I used LN as an example here, choose the "standard" as you see fit (and justify your decision).

- It goes without saying, each tool should be tuned to perfection (a list of the steps taken should be included in the review).

- What kind of lumber is used for testing, and why. Run tests on different grain to show the difference.

- No tool is perfect, so do not hesitate to list the shortcomings, and offer suggestions on how to improve the tool.

- Try to test tools other than those sold by LV.

If I think of something else I'll add to the list later.

DC

Re: Towards a model for writing tool reviews.

#3

One other thought

Dan Donaldson

>I think that it also make a difference when it is someone that has been around on the boards for awhile. You don't really "know" anyone from the web, but you can usually get a feel for where their interests lie, and also some feeling for their credibility as woodworkers. I would look at a review differently when it comes from someone that I have grown to respect on the board than one from someone that I had never heard of that was posting for the first time.

I also think that we are all grownups and can make our own decisions when reading a review post. There are many factors that come in to play, including who is doing the review, what it is about, and the comments made. If anyone were to "shill" a product with a review that was not honest, they would likely be found out rather quickly and their credibility would then be toast, at least here. I don't see anyone that posts here with any regularity doing anything like that. Would there be some level of bias in the review? I am sure that there would be. It is the same for any kind of review, regardless of whether it is for a "freebie" or a purchased tool. People have different expectations of their tools, and everyone has their favorite types, even among the same type of tools. Just look at the bench thread. There are preferences (biases if you will) for and against twin screw vises, bench type, battans, crotchets, and other details. I read all of the preferences, then look at how each would apply to the way that I work and make my own decisions.

To make a short story long, I appreciate the reviews and the effort that goes into doing them. Don't let a few bother you. They can have their opinion, as can the rest of us. As long as the discussion is civil, I would not sweat the small stuff, and if it degenerates, either the board posters or the admins will take care of it.

Re: Towards a model for writing tool reviews.

#4

Re: Towards a model for writing tool reviews.

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I'd be asking myself why I want to do this. It's a lot of work, inordinate to the value received, especially compared to what must be your much higher billable rate to your clients. For example, are you trying to force yourself to go into a tool much more deeply than you normally would? Are you trying to destroy the joy you find in woodworking? Or are you tired of just woodworking and looking for more meaning? Are you trying to repay Rob and company for their great service to the woodworking community? Trying to hone your writing skills? Trying to be the goto guy in your community?

And what happens when you truly hate a tool? Will you write a scathing review? Or just keep quiet about it? Will you review tools from other companies? Why?

These are all real questions for me, not rhetorical. But I've got to say I love Alf's reviews, find them readable in the extreme, truly enjoyable; but then she apparently feels no compunction to "get scientific" about the process. I got quite enough scientific method in my old occupation (software) to voluntarily read such a report, especially in electronic format.

To me it matters not that a given tool works better than a Stanley, since I consider Stanley's inferior to wooden planes of various styles and make. That should cut down your review's requirements significantly, and coincidentally it's tedium.

Pam

Re: Towards a model for writing tool reviews.

#5

Derek, please don't stress over this!

fmutchler@adelphia.net

>I don't think the methodology used to prepare a review is what was in question in the previous thread. It appears to me that there was a question regarding both Greg Sloop's and Rob Lee's motivation; essentially a moral values challenge was raised. I am of the opinion that an apology is due both of those folks. I've seen folks firmly plant both feet in their mouth and I've seen many of them humbly offer regrets and a heartfelt apology. In my opinion, that's one of the most endearing features of this community.

Now, if you want to bend over backwards to prove your impecable character to someone who throws out a charge against you, that's entirely your call. I wouldn't bother. Dan points out the key to the whold mess: e.g. he pretty much says, "We are all adults here, let's consider the accusation, make an assessment, and move on."

So, when I read a post that says "Greg, Derek, Lyn, Alf, et al, are on the take!" I consider both accuser & accused and dismiss it as drivel. All one has to do is review the posts of any of the reviewers mentioned and it will be quite clear to all but the 'evidence challenged' among us that integrity is the norm, not the exception among this community.

I value the comments made here & I learn a lot from everyone here in one way or another. I know how much work it is to produce the reviews that are freely posted here and I would hate to see it become even more difficult because of one or two folks.

Re: Towards a model for writing tool reviews.

#6

Re: Towards a model for writing tool reviews.

Dan Clermont

>Hi Derek,

I appreciate you trying to come up with a fair method on reviewing tools. When a new tool comes to market allot of people want to hear feedback before buying these tools

What I have seen lately has been allot of Veritas tool reviews with no comparison to other tool manufacturers using the same species of wood and sharpening methods. To top it off, these tool reviews are being done with no side by side comparison to other manufacturers and their products.

In other words. If you are going to review a Veritas scrub you better compare it to the Lie Nielsen scrub. Same goes for the Hock spokeshave kit vs the Veritas spoke shave kit or the Knight smoother vs the C&W and the HNT Gordon. Anybody that recieves a free plane and does not compare it to another similar plane on the same board using the same sharpening method is not trulytelling us how well that plane performs compared to the other planes in that size and function category.

I was the person who went on a rant down below on a previous post. Most of the poeple who posted responses to my rant were people who recieved free tool. What people don't know is that I recieved allot of personal e-mails thanking me for bringing this up and that is why I do not feel the need to apologize.

For the record I am not one bit jealous that Greg, Derek, Lyn and ALf and others receive free tools for the reviews they do but I do sense a bias when reading some of the reviews and believe that is due to a thought that some may lose the "free tools" if they were to find some negatives (all tools do have negatives).

Thanks for Listening,

Dan Clermont

Re: Towards a model for writing tool reviews.

#7

Re: Towards a model for writing tool reviews.

Alice Frampton, UK

>Hmm, my ears are burning again...

On the whole I'm inclined to say stick with what you're doing, Derek. If you want to approach it scientifically, good on ya - I think I have the dippy brunette angle covered, so you're out of luck there. ;~)

However, all this hoo-hah (and a passing comment elsewhere too, come to think of it) has reminded me that I've been negligent recently in clearly stating what tools I review end up where, for which I apologise. So I just spent a merry half hour updating Ze Master List! Not that it actually makes any difference to how I review something, except I may be in more of a hurry if someone's champing at the bit for info on a new release, but if it helps...

Cheers, Alf

Re: Towards a model for writing tool reviews.

#8

Dissenting opinion

mike recchione

>I agree with Pam (I think). You needn't bend over backwards to appear objective and scientific - I'd be more interested in your subjective impressions of the tool, the things you liked about it, the things you didn't. Based on your contributions here and elsewhere, I don't think anyone would question your bona-fides as an expert tool user. And anyone who disagrees with your assessment of a particular tool is free to chime in with his/her impressions as well.

I'd stick with impressions if I were you, unless the prospect of doing and writing up a "scientific" study about a tool really appeals to you. Remember - generalizing based on a sample size of 1 isn't exactly good science anyway.

Re: Towards a model for writing tool reviews.

#9

Re: Towards a model for writing tool reviews.

Todd O. Cronkhite Maine Native in FL. Exile :~(

>Derek,

In my opinion your credibility is solid and if you where to do a review either positive or negative than I'd be all ears. As far as Scientific approach to tool testing, well, truth be told it's over my head, but if that's the way you know how to approach the matter than I say knock yourself out. I'm of the mentality that it isn't broke, it just needs a bigger hammer.

Dan,

I've got to admit to being a little surprised by your comments in the thread below. Seemed a little out of charecter for you I thought. I think that you've been around long enough to know that Robs credibility is ROCK SOLID and well above reproach. It is, in my opinion absolutly ludacris for anybody to question his reputation, or motavations. As far as that goes, that goes for eacxh and every person that posts on this forum. I don't beleive that there is a Slickster/Hustler/Shiller in the bunch. Oh, now you know we've had a very bad apples come along from time to time, but they don't hang around long. I think you'll find us to be a tight-knit group all in all, and when one of us throws in a clanger from time to time like I did a few days ago, and like you did in the thread below we can sort it out amongst ourselves right quick and push on.

I think that Derek will give more than fair reviews of Rob's tools, both pro's and con's and will read them with interest tho I am a solid LN man.

To help quantify my beliefs that Rob's reputation is spotless, is the fact that probably 2 years ago now I bad mouthed his new little shoulder plane as looking to be uncomfortable to use, so with my consent he sent me one for "testing" with the agreement that I'd write a review of it right here on WC. NOT ONCE, IN ANY SHAPE, FORM, OR FASHION did he try to influence my review. I, in the end really enjoyed the tool, wrote a positive review, and returned the plane to him. It just don't get any better than that.

Todd O.

Re: Towards a model for writing tool reviews.

#10

Re: Towards a model for writing tool reviews.

Dean in Burlington

>Personally I would rather read reviews from people who have paid for their tools because that really determines how happy they are with their tool after the money has left their wallet. I don't read tool reviews from the Alf, Lyn or yourself or magazines because of this. I stopped reading magazine reveiws after I bought a Dewalt 735 that gets outstanding reviews (it's a piece of crap). If I would have read the reviews from amazon.com from people that actually paid for the machine I would have never purchased it.

But I wouldn't mind hearing things that you think would make the tool better.

But this is just my opinion and what I've found out is my opinion doesn't mean anything :)

Re: Towards a model for writing tool reviews.

#11

Re: Towards a model for writing tool reviews.

Sean Evoy in Ottawa

>I think this is a fascinating topic. We all live in the information age of 24 hour news channels and an endless stream of information. As such, I think we are all capable of filtering out bias so long as it is properly stated. The key words I look for are "free" (because I'm the one who will have buyer's remorse), how long the reviewer took, and how familiar the reviewer is with similar tools.

That said, I have no problem reading a review that offers no comparison to other tools. I don't even mind reading first impression reviews, as long as I know if the reviewer received the tool for free and what they tested on. I think Lynn has set the bar quite high on objective studies, but I think the downside is that each review takes an enormous effort to produce and the results are so qualified that drawing conclusions from them (if that's the intent of the reader) is difficult.

Finally, a reviewer has to be very careful when writing negative reviews on a public forum like this. Flagrantly bad reviews will get removed of course, but the criticism the reviewer receives may well discourage future critical thinking and skew towards feel-good reviews. If we want an open forum with a free exchange of ideas, we have to be ready to hear both sides of an issue, and that isn't easy.

I think that reviewers offer a service to the community. As long as the reviewer states their bias and their methodology up-front, I think there should be a zero tolerance for any personal attacks. If we don't squash that tendency, nobody will want to review anything.

Re: Towards a model for writing tool reviews.

#12

Re: Towards a model for writing tool reviews.

Sean Evoy in Ottawa

>Pam, I understand your concerns, but if you ever feel compelled to write a review, I'm sure there are a lot of us who would be very interested in what you have to say about wooden planes. I suspect that people who have benefited from other people's reviews are motivated by a desire to return the favour.

Re: Towards a model for writing tool reviews.

#13

Re: Towards a model for writing tool reviews.

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Thanks, Sean, but I don't think that will happen any time soon. When I wrote a review of planes in general and mentioned that one particular brand was, shall I say, not up to par, I was criticized for dumping on someone personally, my entire message was deleted, and I was marked as a problem. If I can't say something that I paid full dollar for is bad, very, very bad, I won't say much of anything at all.

Pam

Re: Towards a model for writing tool reviews.

#14

Adam method

Adam Cherubini

>I recommend using the approach I take. Say what you want to say, devil may care. Trust the smart folks here to sort out the hooey from the pearls. Your review won't likely impact sales, and may not even change any minds. My notion is just to add more information or another vote for any given position. Its noble enough.

Regarding bias, I think this is a silly and unintellectual point. Of course you're biased. Of course its unscientific. Its not even worth debating. The question I have is which bias is bad or less valuable? One problem I've had with these sorts of reviews is that the reviewer isn't biased enough! I like to read a review from a guy that completes projects whose bias is against anything expensive. My brother tells me stuff like "You don't need that". That's helpful advice. He gave me that advice when I asked him about getting an earring when everyone else on the crew team was doing it.

Gotta love a brother like that. And I love a reviewer like that too. So either don't worry about bias, or worry about a bigger picture of bias.

adam

Re: Towards a model for writing tool reviews.

#15

Re: Towards a model for writing tool reviews.

Dan Clermont

>Hi Todd,

Maybe it was out of character. Maybe I just had a bad day. But I really don't think people should be given free planes to do reviews.

I believe that one should not get to KEEP the plane once the review is complete. I think your example of shipping the bullnose plane back after your review is the way it should be done. But from what I have been reading here and there is people are keeping the planes and therefore have more motivation to give a positive review rather then be negative.

People who are doing Beta testing for tools should be doing just that and not posting the tools on the forum. Anybody who is shipped a free plane after it has been sent to market is IMO "Marketing" that tool.

So bring on the reviews and comparisons but I won't believe a word if manufacturers start rewarding reviewers for positive comments in their tools.

Dan Clermont

Re: Towards a model for writing tool reviews.

#16

One last comment

Dan Clermont

>As I stated in my thread below and in this thread as well.

I won't believe any review done by anybody where the tool was given as a gift. Because this particular case happened to be a Veritas plane I will say that this goes for all manufacturers. Otherwise, why would they be "totally" honest if theyu were being given free tools to keep.

Take Care,

Dan Clermont

Re: Towards a model for writing tool reviews.

#17

Re: Towards a model for writing tool reviews.

Scott in Douglassville, PA

>If I can't say something that I paid full dollar for is bad, very, very bad, I won't say much of anything at all.

C'mon, Pam - we know you better than that... ;^)

Re: Towards a model for writing tool reviews.

#18

Re: Towards a model for writing tool reviews.

MikeW

>Hi Dan,

I'm not sure that comparitive testing is such a good thing. I think it is certainly out of the purview of the reviews/reports that have been written thus far.

Even if one should attempt to do a comparitive test, it would require a great degree of planning on the reviewer's part and equal cooperation on the part of tool makers.

Even recognized people in the field who regularily write for magazines do not always have timely contributions from manufacturers.

Further, I don't think that a review needs to be comparitive in order to qualify as a review. For instance, when Chris Shwartz (sp?) offers an opinion in a magazine of a single tool, I don't think I have once heard someone complain of bias.

And this is for you, Derek. I am not certain in your profession you would ever recommend to a client to place themselves under the burden of proof and constraints you are recommending for your self. It is not wise to try and please all the people all the time. It is folly to recommend it, it is destructive to try and do it.

I understand somewhat how you might feel concerning having your integrity called into question.

But just as there are folks on any forum you contribute to (except one that I know of) that will always call your motives into question, there are many more who appreciate your efforts, and still a greater number who do not wish to voice any opinion--the lurkers.

If we think that other tool makers are ignorant that these reports are being published in a semi-formal tone, we would be deluding ourselves.

If other tool makers desired, they too could participate in an open exchange of ideas, testing and, should the tester desire, be willing to "publish" a review--for better or worse. As far as I know, there are precious few makers who even make their presence known.

We should all appreciate their openess to comminicate, to listen to criticism and praise. It is our job as responsible adults to do this in a civil manner--both to the reviewer and the maker when they so choose to participate.

MikeW

Re: Towards a model for writing tool reviews.

#19

I agree

Todd Hughes

>First I am not saying and I do not think anybody is part of some big "Fix" While I don't think I would ever own a LV tool it isn't because I don't respect Rob lee ,I do, it's only Im not into that kind of tools. But I just think it looks "funny" to get free planes to do a review on. What would you think if you opened up a copy of "Consumer Reports" and saw an article that started with "The Ford company dropped off thier latest truck that they are giving me free to keep just for doing a review on it..." Instead I believe they make a big point of buying everything they test off the shelf so people just won't think this.I have a friend that writes for a Knife Magazine and he has never done a bad review on a knife that was given to him because he says that just isn't done. Even with none freebies if they advertise in the magazine his editor doesn't want to see anything bad about them....Again I am not saying this is the case here, only to alot of people it just might look funny and will affect negatively how the review comes across. If you want to do a review I think you should get the plane from regular channels or maybe borrow it from somebody that had bought it.....Todd

Re: Towards a model for writing tool reviews.

#20

Now you're talking!

mike recchione

>That's the kind of review I'd like to see: "Yeah, this is a nice plane, but let's face it - if you've got a reasonably tuned up pre-war Bailey #4 and a few sheets of sandpaper, this plane won't add any value..."

Then again, I could probably write that review. And I wouldn't even need to try the new plane to do it :-)

Re: Towards a model for writing tool reviews.

#21

Re: Towards a model for writing tool reviews.

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>My point was that saying good things is meaningless if one is not allowed to say bad things.

Pam

Re: Towards a model for writing tool reviews.

#22

RE: One last comment

Rob Lee

>Dan -

You insist on mis-understanding this...

But I really don't think people should be given free planes to do reviews.


We send out planes (and other product) to a select group of people to solicit feedback on our designs - generally from experienced, articulate, and open-minded people.

Some of those write reviews - but AFTER they've been given the product. (BTW - we also do exactly the same thing with product we don't manufacture, when we use external testers/reviewers). Many of the people we send products to don't write reviews at all.

Frankly - I could care less if any of the people we work with ever post reviews...as long as they keep sending us their comments. And they do - continuing to give us their impressions as they change over time, through long-term testing.

I find it ironic that the people we solicit opinions from because of their track record of intellectual honesty - often end up having that integrity questioned. I'd also point out that more than a few of them write, have written, or are writing for magazine publication, after their analytical and literary skill have been recognized by others.

The real result of much of this questioning of integrity can be a loss of many of those opinions on this board, and others. None of these people "need" external validation of their effort - and only do what they do out of a genuine desire to help others. These people will continue to make a difference in the tools many of you end up using - whether from us - or from others. They'll just stop doing it publicly - as some already have.

As for the frequency of our reviews - I can only point out that we regularly produce more significant new product per year than any other company in this industry - and intend on continuing to do so.

We make no secret that we solicit feedback on our designs. The people that choose to write about them do so under full disclosure. The choice is yours to read what's written - or not.

IMHO - calling publicly for "rules" about how others conduct themselves, or their business, is way out of line.

Cheers -

Rob

Re: Towards a model for writing tool reviews.

#23

Re: RE: One last comment

Brent Smith

>I'm having a hard time understanding the problem here.

The company, in this case Lee Valley, sends out some free tools to people whose opinion they trust asking only that they provide them with feedback on the tool.This seems to me to be better than just relying on the feedback of employees of the company.The tester has no reason not to give the company a true and honest evaluation of the tool, and for his trouble he has received a free tool.The company on the other hand, has received valuable feedback before commiting to a full production run.

This seems like good business practise to me.

If some of the people who have received the tools decide they want to post a review of them on one of the forums,I think that's great.Who benefits..........we all do.That's what the forums are for,the exchange of knowledge , ideas and experiences.

I guess it would be up to each of us individually to decide whether we want to take this persons thoughts on the tool as is,or to think there is an hidden agenda in their review.

Dereck,Alf and the rest of you who post these reviews,PLEASE keep up the great work you have been doing.Let those who want to read something sinister into it, do so, but let those of us who rely on your expertise and, from what I've seen,impartiallity continue to benefit from your writing.

If you truly feel that you must change the way you approach a review that is entirely your decision to make.But do this only if you feel the need, not because of feeling pressure to prove your impartiality.

Brent

Re: Towards a model for writing tool reviews.

#24

Re: Towards a model for writing tool reviews.

John K in Hastings, MN

>Without knowledge of the specific instance, there are (or have been) woodworking boards for which criticism of advertisers who supported the board was actively discouraged.

Personally, I find this to be more offensive than a reviewer who fails to find fault with a sponsored product.

Re: Towards a model for writing tool reviews.

#25

Re: Towards a model for writing tool reviews.

Dan Donaldson

>I think that it depends on how "bad" things are stated. Something like "The tool was supposed to do x, but when I tried it, it did not work because of y. I see this as a design flaw that makes this tool unsuitable for me in its intended use and thus would not recommend purchase." as opposed to "this tool and the maker are horrible and a total rip-off. The owner of the company is a total jerk and the junk that is sold is not worth the materials it is made of."

There is not problem with anyone talking about a problem with a product, including any that advertise here at WC as long as it is factual and not a flame. These issues can help others on the boards know of any issues, and also gives the manufacturers the opportunity to respond. In some cases the problem might be as simple as a misunderstanding of how the tool was supposed to work. Other times, it might be a real issue. Rational discussion can usually help, regardless of the cause. Many times it is not what is said, but how.

(off my soapbox) ;-))

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