Bench thoughts and questions continued:

Re: Bench thoughts and questions continued:

Wendell @ Murphy, TX

>The picture of the crochet being used for dovetailing was an eye opener. I had the exact same thought as you , "Why do I need a twin-screw vise again?" Dean will be happy, I think I am finally convinced that I need to put a crochet on my next hand tool bench. My other thought was "What is leg vise used for?" Chris didn't post any action shots of the leg vise. I guess he needs to save something for the article :)

Wendell

Re: Bench thoughts and questions continued:

David Hammond, in Powder Springs GA

>I was also questioning the leg vise too, but a few operations come to mind, some from Rob Tarule's section in Landis' book: Tarule used the leg vise to hold a plane upside down, and he would shape thin green lengths of wood, to use as pegs; the leg vise could also be used for planing small bits off wood that just won't cooperate with battons and stops; other than that, I remember Landis' saying it was used for just those odd jobs that come up, where you just need some clamping power - maybe for shaping curved chair parts or other curved furniture details, or something like that.

David

Re: Bench thoughts and questions continued:

Jack Guzman from Maine

>I built my bench according to plans I got from LV.It has a large front vise on the end(where a twin screw goes in the plans) and a smaller one on the front.After the fact I found a leg vise at a yard sale and clamped it into the jaws of my end vise,which I found that I never use.I use the leg vise all the time.The depth to the screw gives me alot of options,the holding power is great and the adjustable lower pivot give me alot of versatility. That is the magic word. A leg vise has alot of versatility.I now have two of them( a friend gave me one she found in a barn) and I'm trying to figure out what to do with the second one.---Jack

Re: Bench thoughts and questions continued:

Dean J in MN

>

So lets see; one topic I was curious about, was Dean, you've got a twin screw - and Christopher, you've got the leg vise: what do you guys think of these two animals; what are the pros and cons as you see them (or anyone else for that matter)? I think I'll still include the twin screw on my bench, mostly because it would be extremely difficult to add later, and I've already bought the threading kit, but that crochet/holdfast combination has got me simplifying what's truly neccessary on a bench, in my mind anyway.

David, keep that "simplifying" in your mind, you're on the right track.

I can not speak for the leg vise, perhaps I need to go use Christopher's bench and report back? I've completed 4 projects on my current bench, so there is more to learn I am sure. But, in those 4 projects (2 were case pieces, 2 were tables, so I guess they would be classified as post and apron) here is what I found:

The two tables: I used the twin screw when I cut the tenons on the aprons. And for holding the leg to taper it with a drawknife. That operation would have been much quicker on a shavehorse, but that is still on my list to build.

I have not tried, but it may work, cutting tenons with the apron clamped in the crochet as Chris showed. Not sure, as the cutting force is 90 degrees from the dovetail example. If it does work, you could build the tables without the twin screw.

The two case pieces: In my mind the twin screw shines here. The case sides were ~18" wide and were joined with half blind dovetails. Being able to slip that case side/top between the screws, and rest it on a peg in the leg was nice. I experimented cutting the blind pins with the board flat on the benchtop, held with a holdfast. I'm not decided yet, I need to cut more pins that way.

However, you can clamp the case side in the crochet as Chris explained. I have not tried that method on my bench, but in principle the only things you lose are the clamping out of any cup in the board and a little speed in getting the board clamped. The board still sits on a peg, as I assume Chris uses the board jack near the center of the board?

The downside to the twin screw -- it takes up space in the face of the bench. If I need to edge joint a board over 5 1/2 feet or so I need to take the vise off. Not a big deal, but it is a consideration.

I had another question too: my bench material is all SYP - should I attempt to plane each board (the wood is flatsawn, but turned on edge, so I get an effective quatersawn bench top) to see which direction the grain is going? Or is it going to matter?

I would try to get all the grain heading in one direction. In the end it wasn't possible on my top, but it is as close as I could get. However, I ended up doing most of the flattening across the grain anyway. Only at the end of the process was I planing with the grain. I'm not sure how tear out prone SYP is but a little tearout on a benchtop is not an issue. Think of it as traction pads! :-)

-Dean

Re: Bench thoughts and questions continued:

Matti Kuikka

>David,

I'd make very sure of the grain direction as it makes, besides the final flattening, also the maintenance planing very much easier (and less likely to be scipped).

One thing I have not seen discussed is jaw-maintenance in a vise. I have changed/trued mine thrice in two years of not very active (1-2h/day) but admittedly sloppy use. My leg vise I find useful when needed but not often used in anything else but edge-jointing. If I'd make a new bench, I'd make a crochet.

The one big advantage in making your own bench is that it's no big deal to modify or repair it so you are not afraid to use it as a tool.

Wishing you succes,

Matti

Re: Bench thoughts and questions continued:

David Hammond, in Powder Springs GA

>Thanks Dean! This is great stuff to hear about; all this needs to be put in a book at some point, or at least an extended article. I may end up drilling for a leg vise as I build my bench, and see what happens if I have both options. I've already got the threading kit, so a few pieces of wood would be well worth having both vises, if just to learn their differences. But it's as I thought, the leg vise, especially with a crochet, seems to excel at the odd jobs, whereas the twin screw seems to do fantastic for the carcass side, and the like, but do "ok" for the odd stuff. Hmm, we'll see!

Thanks for the input.

David

Re: Bench thoughts and questions continued:

David Hammond, in Powder Springs GA

>Thanks Matti; from what you and Dean have said, I think I'd better worry about the grain at least to some extent. I'm working with framing lumber, it is #1, but I've got some knots to hide, so I can't just turn every board any ole way... It'll be interesting to hear anyone's response who has worked with both the leg and the twin screw vises, and see what their verdict is - or, I'll just have to build both, and find out myself!

Thanks again.

David

Leg vise vs. Twin screw

Christopher Schwarz

>David,

I use both a leg vise (on my bench at work) and a twin-screw (on my bench at home). I like them both, though each has advantages and disadvantages.

Twin screw: When it's properly aligned, it works very well. If I had to install mine again, I'd make it a face vise with a bench leg in the middle that I could clamp to. (I have it as a tail vise now). I have found that the twin screw needs regular maintenance and adjustment. Things loosen and slip, as in any mechanism. Plus, there are limits to what you can clamp between the screws.

Leg vise or Crochet: The leg vise works great because you can use the entire surface of the leg for clamping a board vertically. If the board is really wide, then I clamp it to the board jack or stretcher or at the front edge of the bench with a clamp. The nice thing is the width capacity is unlimited. The downside is it's a bit slower. Same goes with the crochet: Unlimited width capacity, but a bit slower than the twin screw.

Bottom line: I like the twin screw when I have a lot of drawers to dovetail because it speeds me up. But I really like the leg vise or crochet for case sides.

I'm not sure I helped much, but that's all I got!

By the way, do what you can to arrange your top boards so the grain runs in one direction. But SYP is very forgiving on that front. I've built four or five benchtops with the stuff and find that I can get away with a lot. Plus, it's a workbench, not a dining table. So a little tear-out is fine in my book.

Chris

Re: Leg vise vs. Twin screw

David Hammond, in Powder Springs GA

>Thanks Chris! It's great to hear about some practical experience with those vises. Like I replied to Dean's post, I'm thinking I'll add a leg vise to my bench as well, and decide for myself, with both vises at my disposal, what I like best - or I might just use both of them!

And from what you and other folks have said, I will definitely work on getting the grain running the same way on my bench. I think I'll take my try plane and set up to straighten one edge on all the boards, then rip them to the same dimensions, plane out the same marks, then on to glueing it all up! When I have something to take pictures of, instead of just a pile of framing lumber, I'll post my progress.

Thanks.

David

Re: Bench thoughts and questions continued:

Adam Cherubini

>David,

The leg and twin screw vises are really different beasts which is why, I think, you see both on the same bench.

To answer your question directly, for me the advantage of a twin screw is holding a carcass side for dovetailing while simultaneoulsy restraining any cup in that piece.

I use my leg vise most often for edge work (though I prefer the twin screw for edge work on narrow short stock). I think if I had a crochet, I wouldn't use my leg vise often.

So my advice would be to build in the twin screw, since you're right, it isn't an easy retrofit. You can always add a leg vise later, especially if you keep the legs flush with the front of the top.

The thing I don't like about either vise is that they get in the way of other, often more important, operations. So I encourage you to move the twin screw to the right (provided you're right handed) as far away from that important left corner as possible. Remember to keep the crochet (if you decide to go that route) sufficiently lower than the bench top so a plow plane's fence will clear it.

Also, I reject the notion that a woodworker's bench must have vises. Perhaps you should consider challenging the status quo and focus instead on discovering the valuable secrets to using a bench without vises? Perhaps you can provide provisions for nut elements in the underside of the bench for a future twin screw if you feel you need it. I don't know if you can see any of my past posts criticizing the LV twin screw. Somewhere along the line I posted pictures of my twin screw. The trick is making big heads and getting them close to the top surface of the bench vertically. Don't try to hang the nuts under a 3-4" thick bench top.

I think I'm starting to sound like a broken record: "wooden twin screw vise, wooden twin screw vise, wooden twin screw vise, wooden twin screw vise,..."

Adam

Everybody knows engineers are boring, but when you start boring yourself, you know you're in trouble.

Re: Bench thoughts and questions continued:

Wendell @ Murphy, TX

>Adam, is your twin screw vise removable? If so, do you actually remove it? I am just wondering if you could design a twin screw into a bench but basically leave it off until you need it for that cupped carcass side.

It seems like the best way to get around the problem of the vise getting in the way is to have a bench accessable from all sides. That way you could mount a crochet on one side and a twin screw vise on the other and it wouldn't get in the way. Unfortunately for me, I don't have room for such a bench. Any bench in my current garage/shop will have to go against a wall. Let's assume for a moment that I do have room at the end of the bench for sawing. Is it possible to mount a traditional wooden twin screw on the end of a bench?

Wendell

A wedge helps

Christopher Schwarz

>I had a couple panels that were bowed when I had them in the crochet. A wedge in the gap between the panel and benchtop stopped the vibrating. But I did have a slight pang of longing for a twin screw at that moment.

Chris

Re: Bench thoughts and questions continued:

David Hammond, in Powder Springs GA

>Wooden twin screw, got it! :o) My plans right now are to put a wooden twin screw, with 20" between the screws, to the farthest right on my bench, which will be 12' long - I should still have room for 8' stock before the vise, and then of course, it can come off for joining something really long. I've considered putting the twin screw on the end of my bench, but that sort of messes up sawing, and it doesn't give you that flush leg for support, so I've abandon that idea right now.

And I see you're point, and I think it really needs to be made - how neccessary are all these vises? Not that I'm just looking for an alternative way to hold wood steady, other than a vise, but because there are often better ways to do things, that are different than what the status quo and all the manufacturers of the day are promoting or selling.

David

Re: One other assecory:

David Hammond, in Powder Springs GA

>Sounds like a wedge is a possible fix, but it does sound like the twin screw has some real advantages, especially on a long bench, coupled with a crochet and holdfasts.

The other thing I may add to my bench, is a wedge system, described by Landis - it looks as if it will be quite simple and versatile, especially for planing wider, thin stock. We'll see!

David

Re: Bench thoughts and questions continued:

Wendell @ Murphy, TX

>Good point about the leg support. I completely forgot about that when I suggested putting it on the end. I am really trying to figure out good options for my future bench. I think I will be limited to around 8' long. I probably need to look at what size furniture I think I want to build. Off the top of my head I can't think of anything taller than 6' so maybe having a twin screw on the front won't really get in the way often.

Wendell

Re: Bench thoughts and questions continued:

David Hammond, in Powder Springs GA

>Here's an idea for you; I was fiddling with ideas last night, putting some hard measurements to my bench, and thought of this: what about a twin screw on the left end of the bench, with a fifth leg for vertical support? This would give you total freedom for edge jointing w/a crochet, as well as preserve the right hand corner for sawing. Hmm, something to think about.

David