Questions for freehand sharpeners

Re: Questions for freehand sharpeners *LINK*

Frank D. in Montreal

>You may already know it, but Joel's site has an article about sharpening with a great section on freehand sharpening. The freehand section starts here:

http://www.antiquetools.com/sharp/sharpholdblade.html

I freehand a little but certainly not enough to give any advice.

Frank

There's a better illustrated article right here... *LINK*

Bob Smalser, Seabeck, WA

>Look at the bottom of the articles section. Addresses most of your questions. Study it and holler at you want more on.


http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/readarticle.pl?dir=smalser&file=articles_443.shtml

My answers

Adam Cherubini

>Hi Luke,

Good questions. I don't think I'm a good sharpener, even though I do it a lot.

1) Do you grind (sharpen, reshape?) bevels freehand or just hone?

Yes. I simply can�t get the tool rest where I want it, so I�ve learned to lightly touch the blade to the spinning wheel. I�ve got a really bad grinder.

2) Do you freehand both chisels and plane irons?

Yes! I think its important to find a way that works and then use it as often as possible to cement it.

3)Are your bevels flat enough to 'click' onto the stone, or do you just focus on holding the angle and live with a slightly convex bevel?

No my bevels aren�t flat enough to �click�. I don�t think a convex bezel is a liability. It may be an advantage.

4) Or do you even end up with a convex bevel?

I don�t try to �dub� my edges. But I think that�s the natural result of freehand sharpening without a hollow grind. Even when I do grind, I hone out the hollow. I�m usually too chicken to grind all the way to the edge.

5) If so, does a slightly convex bevel matter?

Some might say a convex edge is a stronger edge. It all depends on what the initial angle was. If you started at 30 degrees and the rounding makes an effective 35, you may have trouble getting that tool to cut well. The old timers seemed to grind lower angles. It may be because they knew the effective angle would wind up greater. I don�t see nice neat hollow ground edges. I never much thought about this, but maybe we�re all doing it wrong. Maybe we should just grind away the excess material (to a low bevel angle) and then only hone the last 1/16� of an inch.

6) Do you angle the iron on the stone? (sideways like)

I do, though I was told that moving forward and back results in lengthwise scratches which produce a stronger edge. I mostly skew the blade and go back and forth, not side to side. I sometimes go side to side when working the back.

7) Pick up the iron on the return stroke?

Never. But I have no good reason or explanation for this.

8)What does your grip on the iron look like?

I hold the blade in one hand, usually thumb under, miserable crooked arthritic fore finger on top. I like a high bench for sharpening.

9)How about on the chisel?

Same same.

10) Did I get concave and convex backwards?

I don�t think so.

For some time I�ve wondered if we know all there is about sharpening. I�d like to hear what others have to say. IMHO, more important than technique is knowing when a tool is sharp. Looking very carefully at the edge, possibly under a magnifying glass is helpful. Otherwise, I test my edges by slicing paper. If a tool produces a clean slice edge on, its sharp enough. If there�s tearing, the tool isn�t sharp enough. Slicing the paper by drawing the edge gives an indication of the smoothness of the edge. I think a smooth edge is important.

prejudiced answers

bill tindall

>1) Do you grind (sharpen, reshape?) bevels freehand or just hone? I grind on bench grinder, BUT, I was never very successful until I got the nice stable tool rest that came with the Wolverine sharpening system for lathe tools. The Veritas is too wobbly and the aluminium sticks to the tool and results in a jerky motion for me.

2) Do you freehand both chisels and plane irons? Yes but I am less successful on 1/4" chisles than 2" plane irons.

3)Are your bevels flat enough to 'click' onto the stone, or do you just focus on holding the angle and live with a slightly convex bevel? Hollow grind helps with feel of proper orientation.

4) Or do you even end up with a convex bevel? no, they are hollow ground.

5) If so, does a slightly convex bevel matter?NA

6) Do you angle the iron on the stone? (sideways like) For a plane iron I do best when I am pulling the iron down the surface nearly parallel to the long axis of the edge.

7) Pick up the iron on the return stroke?Definitly

8)What does your grip on the iron look like? Clumsy

9)How about on the chisel?worse (actually in both cases index fingers are on top of bevel,thumbs under blade. I use index fingers to press edge to be ground against the surface.

10) Did I get concave and convex backwards? concave= inny convex = outy

Important point: One can pull the tool down the abrasive surface once perfectly. Twice goes well too. After 120 times the mind wanders as well as the tool orientation. So for my skill level I found it useful to use an appraoch that required as few strokes as possible. For me this was hollow grind on bench grinder, hand powered if you must, and then go to a diamond studded surface (I use loose diamonds on cast iron or acrylic).

Re: Questions for freehand sharpeners

Warren in PA

>To answer your questions directly:

1.I just hone

2.both chisels and plane irons etc.

3.I don't know if click is the right word but you settle on the bevel. You get your angle from feeling the existing bevel rather than from eyeing the angle you're holding the tool. If you want to change the bevel you feel yourself leaning a little more on the toe or the heel. As you gain experience you get more feedback from touch- often you can feel when it is time to move on to the next stone.

4.I think a beginner can be expected to have a slightly convex bevel. As your hands become steadier the curvature diminishes to the point that it is not noticable.

5.If the bevel is convex, the angle at the tip is the important one.

6.&8. You hold the iron in the right hand with thumb and fingers curved around and the end of the iron just before the wrist. The fingers of the left hand (3or4) are rested in front near the bevel. Some people clasp part of the right hand with the left thumb. I have the stone straight in front of me and push staight ahead. because the tool is oriented with the right hand it makes an angle with the stone. My arms are symmetrical. The wrists and hands move very little- steady but not tense.

7. I do not pick up.

9. I hold the chisel handle with the right hand, left fingers near bevel; if it is a long chisel the hands are some what separated.

more observations

Warren in PA

>I think that if you already have a jig and are learning freehand you will want to use the jig sometimes just to true things up a bit. It is ever so much easier to freehand a bevel that is already uniform than one that is crooked or convex or faceted. So concentrate on maintaining your bevel and don't try to clean up a messy one until you are more experienced.

I have been doing this for so long and so automatically I had to do some sharpening to answer the questions , but it still takes quite a bit of discipline to bring a sloppy bevel into uniformity.

Re: Questions for freehand sharpeners

Bob Lang

>I sharpen freehand for philosophical reasons, and because I was taught that using jigs meant you were spending too much time, and probably were a sissy. The old guys who taught me got really keen edges going from a bench grinder to a dished out oil stone. I also had a bad experience with the General honing jig about 25 years ago which also was a big influence.

Philosophically I think you need to develop a feel for how the tool fits in your hand and the angles it cuts at, and that honing is a good way to practice getting the feel right. I've been a full time woodworker for quite a while, and I will admit that it took years to get good results

I've been letting Christopher Schwarz try to talk me into using a jig, and I think that for someone with limited time to learn, that might be the best route. I'll be trying out the new LV guide soon, so CS will have another chance to convince me.

Anyway, here is what I do:

1) Do you grind (sharpen, reshape?) bevels freehand or just hone?

I avoid grinding if at all possible, generally do it freehand, but have taken a liking to flat wheel horizontal machines.

2) Do you freehand both chisels and plane irons?

Yes

3)Are your bevels flat enough to 'click' onto the stone, or do you just focus on holding the angle and live with a slightly convex bevel?

I get the primary bevel flat on the stone, and then tense up my wrists to get the secondary bevel

4) Or do you even end up with a convex bevel?

eventually the secondary bevel gets a bit convex as it gets wider, thats about when I either grind, or flatten the primary bevel with a coarse diamond stone.

5) If so, does a slightly convex bevel matter?

I guess it must since that's the point where I start over. I'm not really sure if thats because it isn't cutting as well, or if it's getting harder to hold the bevel on the stone.

6) Do you angle the iron on the stone? (sideways like)

I go straight back and forth in relation to the stone, but slide sideways as I go so I'm not staying in one spot.

7) Pick up the iron on the return stroke?

No, once I have my wrists in position I hold as steady as I can

8)What does your grip on the iron look like?

Right hand thumb under, index finger on top, pointing down. Left hand fingers on top near end. Fingers spread out to corners, and number of fingers used depends on width.

9)How about on the chisel?

pretty much the same, but right hand holds the handle.

I think the real key to sharpening is sticking with a method until it becomes second nature. I had to go grab a chisel to describe how I grip it, but I know I do it the exact same way every time. If you keep changing methods you don't develop the feel for it. For me, I had mediocre results for a long time, and then things clicked into place.

Bob Lang

Question for Bob & Joel

mike recchione

>I notice that on Joel's site, the recommended drill seems to be to go directly from a Medium India stone to a translucent Arkansas stone. Is there any value in the "surgical black" Arkansas stone, which seems to be less than half the price of the translucent? I don't mean as an intermediate step, but as the final stone before stropping. Or are these just a waste of money?

Re: Questions for freehand sharpeners

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>1)Do you grind (sharpen, reshape?) bevels freehand or just hone?

I do not grind any of my blades freehand. In the past I used the LV Honing Guide or an Eclipse. I went through a spell on a dry grinder, and more recently I have been using my belt sander. Finding the correct bevel angle has become more important since I have been using bevel up planes and also because I maintain a few sets of chisels with bevels between 20 � 30 degrees. On the other hand, my first choice is to hone freehand since it is quicker than anything else. Note, however, that I have only been doing this for 3 or 4 years, and I will inevitably need to use a honing guide to �restore� the bevel and undo all my �damage�.

2)Do you freehand both chisels and plane irons?

Yes to chisel and plane blades that do not require a micro-bevel.

3) Are your bevels flat enough to 'click' onto the stone, or do you just focus on holding the angle and live with a slightly convex bevel?

It depends on the blades. The thicker blades (such as the �� HNT Gordon, or the 30 degree Japanese chisels) are very easy to hold flat to the waterstones. By contrast, the thin Stanley blades require great vigilance to keep flat on the bevel, and I often shave more off my fingertips than off the blade!

4) Or do you even end up with a convex bevel?

Yes, more noticeably with the thinner blades since these will rock more. I was sharpening the LN blade in my Stanley #112 the other day, which was last ground (to a 45 degree bevel) about a year ago. The bevel was almost round. I marveled that it worked at all!

5) If so, does a slightly convex bevel matter?

A slight convex bevel will not noticeably affect performance, especially on bevel down planes. On the other hand, a moderate convex bevel will do so on chisels. There is a significant difference in paring using chisels with 20-, 25-, and 30-degree bevels. Similarly, this will change the characteristics of bevel up planes.

6) Do you angle the iron on the stone? (sideways like)

Yes, especially with narrow Stanley blades I will even angle them parallel to the stones as this seems to lend more stability. With most blades I try and cover the stone evenly, and this often involves skewing them. But I try and end up with a forward hone.

7) Pick up the iron on the return stroke?

It depends on what you mean by �return stroke�. I often hone both ways, and it is only the forward motion that may be modified since higher bevel angles introduce a greater risk of the edge digging in. This is also the case with thin chisels.

8) What does your grip on the iron look like?

I try and maintain an even pressure across the blade, so the number of fingers used will depend on the width of the blade. I tend to hold the blade in my left hand, fingers on top, thumb underneath, and guide it with my right hand. My elbows are locked and my forearms are rigid. I move the blade by moving my body. It is easy to unwittingly hone a camber on the blade by maintaining too much finger pressure on the outer sides. I attempt to keep the bevel straight until the end, when I will follow David Charlesworth�s recommendation of using an equal number of strokes at each side to create an even camber.

9) How about on the chisel?

Same thing.

10) Did I get concave and convex backwards?

I don�t think so � I know what you mean, tho�.

Regards from Perth

Derek

My answers and more questions

GolfSteve in Calgary

>1. I hollow grind often. This makes freehand sharpening much easier because there is less metal to remove by hand and "feeling" the angles is easier. One trick I learned here is to put a convex shape (rounded upwards) onto your grinding wheel surface. With this shape only the centre of the stone does the grinding, and there is much less worry about catching an edge near the sides of the stone. You also don't have to worry as much about keeping the plane blade square to the wheel. This is analagous to using a single point fence on a bandsaw to cut a straight line.

I touch the blade centre to the wheel, then move the blade to one side. I then pull the blade back, recentre it, touch the blade to the wheel again, and slide the blade to the other side. This keeps me from spending too much time near the blade corners.

I get pretty good results freehand, but I do get better results by using the Veritas grinding jig to keep my blade square to the stone. I grind until there is only about 1/32 to 1/64 of an inch of unground steel near the cutting edge. Grinding all the way to the edge guarantees some buring of the steel. Unless I have a brain fart or sneeze at a critical moment I never burn the edges. Hollow grinding an iron takes me about five minutes. I stop frequently to inspect my progress and allow the iron to cool.

2. I freehand both chisels and plane blades. I actually find chisels easier to freehand, except for blades less than 1/4" where I have some trouble keeping the edge square.

3/4/5. Because I hollow grind, the primary bevel only touches the stone at the toe and heel of the bevel. This allows me to quickly reference the primary bevel angle on the stone (ie. "click" the blade onto the stone). I then raise the blade a couple of degrees and form a secondary bevel on a 1000 grit stone. I stop when a good burr is formed.

I then switch to the 8000 stone, find the primary bevel angle, raise the blade up a few degrees to find the secondary bevel, then raise the blade a tiny bit and hone a mirror bright tertiary bevel that is only about 0.5 mm wide (or until the burr is completely removed).

The last step is to flip the blade over and hone/flatten the backside. I've been experimenting with the ruler trick, but I'm wondering if this is somehow contributing some of my sharpening inconsistencies (see below).

I stridently try to avoid a convex bevel (a bevel bulging outwards). A convex bevel makes trying to find and maintain bevel angles difficult. With a convex bevel you're never sure if you're shapening the very edge of the blade (which you want to do), or if you're just polishing up some portion of the convex bevel.

Once my secondary bevel gets a bit wide, it becomes difficult to easily "feel" the bevel angle on the stone (click the blade in place), and it is time to hollow grind again. The secondary bevel only gets about 3-4 mm wide before I regrind.

With the two microbevels, I think I've run into some clearance angle issues in the past. I used to hollow grind at 30 degrees; but by the time I formed the other two bevels, I might have been up as high as 37-40 degreees. I now hollow grind at 25 degrees, and the final bevel ends up around 35 degrees. I'm still experimenting with this.

6. Nope, backwards and forwards. I can't get the hang of side to side motion while keeping a constant sharpening angle.

7. Nope, I think it would be very difficult to keep a consistent angle if you are picking up the iron on the forward stroke.

8. The Vulcan death grip. I find that I try to apply too much pressure; especially when I'm getting frustrated with my efforts. I try to keep a relaxed grip and light pressure on the stone. My left hand cradles the underside of the blade. My right hand has three fingers applying pressure to the top of the blade near the edge. The thumb and pinky of the right hand wrap around the blade, locking with my left hand.

Pressure is critical to maintaining a square edge. Too much pressure on one side and your blade edge will end up skewed. Alternately you can manipulate pressure to develop a crowned blade edge.

The height of your sharpening bench is also important. About waist high works for me. The lower than normal height makes it easier to lock your elbows and wrists to maintain a constant bevel angle.

9. Similar grip for chisels, but less fingers apply pressure.

Now for my question - I freehand sharpen, but have been having some difficulty lately even though I'm sharpening more than even due to working on a maple workbench. Maple is a difficult test of my sharpening skills. My problems are somehow related to the edge folding, or a remanent burr remaining. After a few strokes on the plane there is a noticeable burr on the backside of the iron (which was not there when I finished sharpening), the blade is dull and I have to start over. ##%$*#^!!!! Sometimes I end up with an edge that will last 30 minutes, other times I end up with an edge that is dull after five strokes. Any ideas???

Re: Question for Bob & Joel

Joel

>Well first of all our Norton black arkansas is more expensive than a hard/translucent and I don't recommend one over the other. I know other people do - but in my view the difference is at best marginal. Also arkansas stones wear in - they get sweeter over time (unlike waterstones where you are alway exposing fresh grit on an arkansas stone the rock does get smoothed over over time)

Two weeks ago Maurce and I recorded a sharpening video - he did the oilstone bit and I did the waterstone bit and grinding. (he's a natural on camera I look like a deer in headlights - only more scared) It's the first time I saw maurice teach the lesson in at least 10 years and for me - even after doing this for 20 years - a refresher from him was really useful. I was getting sloppy. He can teach anyone to freehand sharpen easily in about 40 minutes - then it's practice. it's much faster than any jigs and you get very consistent results if you disipline yourself to be consistent. The problem of course is learning a sharpening methodolgy where you can be consistent. This to my mind is what makes his method so superior to anything I have seen out there - it's not just easy to do it's easy to teach. but as my own experiece taught me - shortcuts are shortcuts and I'm getting now the best results I have had for years. Nothing like remembering to pay attention.

We both agree that jigs can be useful for getting rid of convexity on a bellied tool but at the same time considering you can get a grinder for 10-20 bucks or so more than a fancy honing guide we both feel that a grinder is an essentil tool for the serious woodworker.

Historically most people didn't own grinders - but in those days a typical activity on a Saturday afternoon would be to take your tools that needed to be ground to the local hardware store for grinding.

Re: Questions for freehand sharpeners *LINK*

Joel

>1) Do you grind (sharpen, reshape?) bevels freehand or just hone?

Always - I hollow grind everything

2) Do you freehand both chisels and plane irons?

yues

3)Are your bevels flat enough to 'click' onto the stone, or do you just focus on holding the angle and live with a slightly convex bevel?

always - otherwise I regrind and I remove the microbevel at each honing to maintain the primary bevel and then replace it.

4) Or do you even end up with a convex bevel?

no

5) If so, does a slightly convex bevel matter?

it makes it harder to sharpen next time.

6) Do you angle the iron on the stone? (sideways like)

yes - makes it easier except for very narrow chisels - where I don't

7) Pick up the iron on the return stroke?

no

8)What does your grip on the iron look like?

see link on Maurice's less.

9)How about on the chisel?

same as 8

10) Did I get concave and convex backwards?

no


Marice Fraser's sharpening lessons

Re : Problem with plane edge folding / burring

Stephen in Ottawa

>Steve,

I had exactly the same problem some months ago when planing a maple board. I had posted here and got some interesting replies. Both Rob Cosman and David C suggested it may be mineral streaks in the maple; they show up as black streaks in the wood. The board I was planing had an unusually large number of mineral streaks, sometimes quite wide. I am quite sure that was the problem, as I haven't had the problem in other maple boards before or since then.

I do however have the same problem on my current project. The wood is poplar(!). I can't see any dark streaks or problems in the wood, but the (A2 steel) edge folds in 5 min of planing. I suspect mineral content. I will probably have to resort to power to get this done as it's no fun having to sharpen every few minutes. What I'm not sure about is the effect, if any, of such wood on my backsaws. I'd intended to cut dovetails in the poplar, but don't want my saw dulling unduely.

- Stephen

Thanks, Joel & follow-on question

mike recchione

>Thanks, Joel. I followed the link from Bob's article to the Hall's site (they also mine and sell Arkansas stones), and their black surgical stones are less than half the price of their translucent stones. They call the black surgical a "fine" stone and the translucent an "extra fine" stone. I didn't realize that the Norton stone you sell is a surgical black - I assumed it was a translucent stone because the price lined up with Hall's translucent stone. So now I'm really confused. So confused that I'm no longer sure what my question is, other than "What's up with Arkansas stones, anyway?" Or, "Is the nomenclature totally arbitrary?"

I've been using old stones that I inherited, and I'm not sure what they are. One I'm fairly certain is a coarse India stone, another is a medium India (that one I know), then my two finer stones are mysteries to me. I know that my finest stone, a small, cream colored, very hard, shiny stone, was used by my grandfather to sharpen his razors. It puts a mirror finish on an edge with very few strokes. It's only drawback is that it's only about 4" long.

I've been building up a set of duplicate stones, etc. for a warm weather shop that I recently set up in the garage (I've discovered that having only one of things you use a lot is a real pain if you have to share them across two shops!) So I've been debating what to get, since I have no clue about what I currently have and use other than that it's worked really well for me.

On a side note, I was planning a trip to your store in the next week or so. Are you open over the holiday weekend?

Thanks,

Mike

Re: Thanks, Joel & follow-on question

Joel

>We are open m-f 10:30 to 6:00 we are Closed this monday because of the holiday.

we open Saturdays 12-3 sept 1- april 30

if you can only visit on Monday let me know and I will see if it can be arranged - I'm going to visit relatives.

We sell Norton Hard/Translucent arkansas stones.

(along with soft arkasas and lily white washita)

We also sell Norton Black Arkansas stones.

Norton grades their black arkansas stone slightly finer than their Hard/ Translucent. I'm not positive I agree and consider them very ver close together. HOWEVER other companies grade differently. I have been my experiece that Norton grading is a very consistent. I don't know what the other companies sell.

Thanks again

mike recchione

>And thanks for the offer of Monday - that's very generous of you. If I can't make it in during your scheduled hours, I'll just order through the web site. It would be fun to stop by and see all the cool stuff and meet you, but I wouldn't consider interfering with your family time. But I do appreciate the offer.

Thanks again,

Mike

Depends

Bob Smalser, Seabeck, WA

>The down side of novaculite stones is they aren't always the grit advertized....I have a "hard" stone that is of medium hardness but cuts more quickly than the soft stones...cuts just as fast as waterstones, in fact...and a "soft" stone almost as hard as my black.

India stones to a "hard" stone" to a "transluscent" or "black" stone sounds a bit more logical to me.

I rarely use the black....usually my "soft" followed by my "hard" then straight to the 1750rpm stitched muslin wheel loaded with rouge is plenty...and takes mere seconds.

Re: Depends

Joel

>Bob - this is one thing I like about Norton - there grits are pretty consistent. for old or unbranded stones I would agree any particular stone can be all over the map and you have to test it to find out what it actuall works as.

Freehand sharpening - how to *LINK*

Andrew F in Australia

>an old link I wrote is attached.

This is an indepth summary of how I was trained (trade cabinetmaker)

Cheers,

Andrew


Freehand sharpening - how to

Ellis, archive this thread? --

Clay C in Miami

>

I think they all get archived

Ted Owen, Pittsburgh

>

Yup.

Ellis Walentine

>The last 10,000 messages are available right here by using the search function. Older messages live on in the Hand Tools Archive.

Ellis

imprecision ...

Clay C in Miami

>Don't some threads get assigned a 'title' or heading, and get placed in the Articles section? That's what I meant ...

Clay

Grind first

Jim Reed @Tallahassee

>Sorry that electrons are involved, but I live in the 21st century and take advantage of everything I can. I first grind my blades on a high speed grinder (carefully, quickly, and with many dunkings) or grind them on a Tormek. Final sharpening/honing is done freehand on a plate with sandpaper. The hollow grind makes the blade *snap* into the proper angle. Three or four swipes per grade does it. Quick & easy.