Another saw jointing question

Re: Another saw jointing question

paul womack

>However, in looking at the remaining teeth, they are irregularly spaced - some right paired up close together with big spaces between the next set of teeth and others a single tooth with big spaces on either side then some look to be spaced okay.

Perfectly usual on old saws, I'm afraid.

The remedy is simple, but requires care; this applies to almost anything to do with saw sharpening.

When a tooth has a pointed tip (i.e. a sharp tooth) you can't move it, since filing would lower it below the "jointing line".

But when teeth have flat tips (after jointing ;-) you can file away one side or another.

You have to look (and THINK) carefully to work out how to file the GULLETS to make the TEETH come out right. This may involve visualising uniform teeth over the actual teeth, and working out the difference. This is good excercise for the brain :-)

As always, practice on a nice big rip saw first.

BugBear

Re: Another saw jointing question

Ted Shuck, Centennial, CO

>Just to elaborate on what Paul said...

If you have alternating big-little teeth, after jointing you will have wide flats and narrow flats. When you file the gullets, just put side pressure on the file to file away more of the wide flat from the gullets on both sides of the flat. This will even out the size of the teeth.

Do not file away all the gullets if you have a lot of jointing to do. This will make a lot more work in the end. It is a lot easier to file with even a vestigial gullet left than with none at all. If you will have to remove all of the gullets to get the saw completely jointed, do some alternating jointing and filing so you don't lose them completely. DAMHIKT!

Ted

Re: Another saw jointing question

paul womack

>If you have alternating big-little teeth, after jointing you will have wide flats and narrow flats.

Ahem.

No you won't. All the flats will be the same size. You've removed an equal amount (vertically) from a number of teeth TIPS. All the removed triangles are "similar" in angle, and share a height (remember high school!?)

Everything else you said is good to go, though.

BugBear

Re: Another saw jointing question

Ted Shuck, Centennial, CO

>We must have a problem with terminology here, because I believe what I said is still correct.

"If you have alternating big-little teeth, after jointing you will have wide flats and narrow flats."

The teeth are not all the same size to start. The even ones are bigger (taller and wider) than the odd ones. So, we have alternating big triangles and small triangles. When you start jointing the saw, you will start filing the tops off the big teeth. The big teeth will develop flats at the tops and these flats will get bigger until you reach the smaller teeth. When you just start getting flats on all the smaller teeth, you stop jointing. At this point, you have wide flats on the tops of the bigger teeth and small flats on the tops of the smaller teeth. They are all the same height now, but the width of the teeth have not changed. Some are still bigger (wider) than others.

Agreed?

Ted

Re: Another saw jointing question

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>I think it depends a lot on what went wrong on the previous sharpenings. Half of the gullets can be deeper than the others, or half of the gullets can be in the wrong place. Either condition will result in big-little-big-little... A combination of these problems can also exist. How it happened can have many human factors causes, maybe not holding the angles closely enough, or sharpening the whole saw from the same side, etc.

Re: Another saw jointing question

Ted Shuck, Centennial, CO

>Thanks William!

I think you hit it on the head.

I assumed that uneven teeth had even gullet depth, but uneven tips. This is what I have typically found. Paul assumed that they had even tips, but uneven gullet depth. This must be what he typically finds.

You are correct that both situations may be found and combinations of these two are probably most likely.

Thanks,

Ted

Re: Another saw jointing question

Mike McDaniel

>With a 16" saw, you probably have something like 10 tpi. If this is the case, I would opt to file them off, and start over. This is my approach with smallish teeth. The aggravation of trying to figure out where the uneven teeth go, is not worth my time. However, this is after many years of sharpening saws. If you are just starting out, you may want the security of having some teeth, to use as a pattern. Now, if the teeth are larger(8-5.5 tpi),then filing away all the teeth may be the bigger hassle.

MIke McDaniel,

WV

I agree with Mike

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>I would opt to file them off, and start over.

I totally agree with this

The aggravation of trying to figure out where the uneven teeth go, is not worth my time.

If you are just starting out, you may want the security of having some teeth, to use as a pattern.

Naaah. Any gullets you leave will just cause problems, especially if they are irregular. If they are regular, you should still file them off since your filing (as a beginner) won't be [regular].

Cutting new small teeth is EASY. Count strokes per tooth I rough them in from one side, may joint, may set, then sharpen as usual from both sides. I don't think you should dub your teeth with a stone at the end.

Adam

Re:How true!

Mike McDaniel

>Using a stone at the end of sharpening, is like using a sharpening compound. If the sharpening is done right, the saw will cut straight. If the saw does not cut straight, joint,set, and sharpen again. Practice makes perfect.

Mike McDaniel,

WV

Re: I don't agree

Ted Shuck, Centennial, CO

>I guess I am just disagreeable today!

I find it much easier to file a saw if there are existing gullets. It is much more difficult for me to layout and file a new set of teeth from a blank blade than to even up some teeth that are badly formed but have the basic spacing that I want.

Big teeth involve a lot of filing if you have to start from a blank blade. I would send the saw out to get it retoothed in this case.

I have a problem starting small teeth, since I can never get the file to start exactly where I want it too. Saw files are radiused slightly on the corners so they tend to skitter and slide a bit when there is no existing gullet to hold them. If they slide even a little on closely spaced teeth, it messes up the spot where the tip of next tooth will be formed.

I find it much easier to work with existing gullets and just apply a little side pressure to even them up.

Ted

Re: Another saw jointing question

Skip in Falls Church

>This saw is so bad I have no teeth on the back few inches, just gullets at the front (that was my intention when I knew I would lose teeth) then I have big flats some from where two teeth were so close together they made one flat, some small flats and still have some fully formed teeth minus the slight flat from jointing.

If nothing else, seeing how this saw was "sharpened" gives me confidence that no matter how bad a job I do sharpening, it's got to turn out better than this. :)

Skip

Re: Another saw jointing question

Skip in Falls Church

>Hi Mike and Adam,

I suspect that I'll follow your advice. I have a little time to think it over, I'm working 3 of the next 4 days and hitting the MD Sheep and Wool Festival on Saturday. The wife has to get her fix too. :)

The saw was originally 8 or 9 tpi - depending on where I checked. I think either size would have been fine considering the application. I don't think that 10 tpi would be a problem. Would the difference between 8, 9 and 10 tpi make any difference in ripping 1/4", 3/8" or even 1/2" stock? I'm not afraid to make a stab at starting with no gullets - after all, this saw has no place to go but up.

Skip

Patterns

Bob Hackett

>The best tip for cutting new teeth(or fixing a botched job) that I`ve found is to use a hacksaw blade as a pattern.This works great for those tiny teeth that make you go crosseyed half way thru.Just clamp it in your saw vice right along with the saw.

Mainely,Bob

Re: I don't agree

Adam Cherubini

>When you are cutting new teeth, you needn't worry too much about the position of the file for the first stroke. That first stroke creates a gullet, then every subsequent stroke corrects the tooth's position.

I've not had good luck cutting saw teeth finer than 12-14tpi. It may be my files. As it happens, I don't care for saws much finer than that anyway.

Adam

Re:short strokes, Skip

Mike McDaniel

>Skip,

When starting from scratch, I find it necessary to grip the vise with my pinky and ring finger, while holding the file with my thumb and forefinger.(left hand) This arrangement keeps the file from slipping, along the blade. The first couple of strokes are just the length that this holding arrangement will allow. Once a small gullet is formed, take one full stroke, then move to the next tooth. Do this for about one inch or so, and check your progress. You may find that you can take a few strokes, but don't try to finish the teeth as you go. Once the whole blade has teeth, go back and sharpen as normal. If this is confusing, write me back channel if you want clarification.

Mike McDaniel,

WV

Re: Patterns

Larry Felix

>I think I saw this trick back on the porch at Badger Pond - I'm certainly not smart enough to think of something so simple by myself: When you have to file the old teeth off (for whatever reason), you can use a photocopy of a ruler that you either enlarge or shrink as needed and then glue (contact cement, rubber cement) directly to the blade edge. Then, use the graduations on your "ruler" to tell you where to file. Works like a charm.