Why is it that (in Western chisels at least) dedicated paring chisels are often so long? That is, a full-length is often a foot or more. I have heard folks say that the length makes it easier to gauge angle and squareness. Adam's article contributes the possibility that it's so they can reach your shoulder easier ...
I guess these two aren't mutually exclusive. For final DT paring, I ground down one of my embarrassment of 1/4" chisels to a no-shoulder profile, but it's quite short, which hasn't seemed to cause any problems (though I haven't tried the Moxon/Cherubini shoulder paring with a longer one yet to compare).
Anyone here use the particularly long chisels for paring? What's your thinking?
I have Japanese paring chisels ('slicks'), and in the smaller dovetailing sizes, say less than 1", they run 14"-15" long in total length. Tasai, Imai, Funahiro. The length makes it easier for me to judge vertical, and also you can catch them under your shoulder, or else get your hand around the end and get your fist up under your jaw--either way you're getting body weight behind the cut as you sight down the chisel, which gives a lot of control compared to arm pushing. And for horizontal paring, the length and the long blade section gives good reach and good hand relief.
The Japanese paring chisels you have: are these the ones for which you have to take out a 2nd mortgage? Seriously, I've looked at some of these and I am going to purchase at least one. My question is: how much of a difference is there between a $40 Sorby paring chisel and the $150 Japanese? Personally, the ones in Japan Woodworker are some of the most beautiful tools I have ever seen. I purchased a 5/8" triangular dovetail chisel that is just a joy to hold and use. Smallish (especially for the cost), however it is one of my favorite tools.
>Thomas noted that they did all their testing of their chisels with a steel hammer. The hophornbeam held up admirably, with no noticable damage to the handles. Now, if you use a lath hatchet, or strike them with a sharp edge in a moment of inattention, you would probably dent them.
>I use a long paring chisel for trimming tenon shoulders and other work, but since I work at a relatively high bench when chopping and paring dovetails, I don't need a longer chisel to get between the shoulder and the dovetail. So, I find that one shorter, L-N, chisel works well for both rough chopping and final paring to the line. Also, when cleaning out the corners of half-blind dovetails, since you are constantly changing the directions of your cuts, the maneuverability of a shorter chisel is also an advantage. Some people who work at a lower joiners bench like to build a some sort of height extension to clamp in their vise for working dovetails, to raise the work to a more efficient height.
>Why is it that (in Western chisels at least) dedicated paring chisels are often so long? That is, a full-length is often a foot or more. I have heard folks say that the length makes it easier to gauge angle and squareness.
If you need a long chisel to meet these requirements a long handle may be a better alternative. I suspect long blades are meant to lie flat on the work and pare away high spots. In this case a long blade is absolutely essential.
If I were going to buy Sorby's, I'd find vintage ones. The archives have differing opinions on the new ones.
On the main question, if the criterion is value for money, I don't think the choice will be premium Japanese chisels (even though I have a bunch of em). I am persuaded by Sir Wm., that LN is great value for money at $50 a piece. Charlesworth says the same thing. A search of the archives will uncover a post by Manny, who uses very high end Japanese tools, and he gives LN high marks when compared against premium Japanese chisels.
But paring chisels was the topic, and as you've found out from your 15mm dovetail chisel, the Japanese tools can please you, long after you've forgotten what they cost. If you're going shopping for a paring chisel, the triangular cross section ('shinogi') will cost more than the flat cross section ('usu'). And blue steel will cost more than white steel. The makers of the $150 chisels also make a very good white steel/red oak handled version for prices between $60 and $80. There is a link below, which compares prices for the different styles (these are by Chutaro Imai).
One of the advantages of the handmade Japanese chisels is that you can get what you want. You can call up Kayoko at Misugi Designs and say, "I would like for Imai-san to make me a white steel 4.5mm slick, usu style, and would you ask him to bevel the side walls inward a few degrees." In a month, you will have that chisel, in a special size, with beveled sidewalls, and it will cost you the standard price of $57.20 + shipping. Same thing with 7.5mm. I mention these odd sizes because I use them frequently for paring dovetail baselines. BTW, I notice Kayoko's prices have not been raised yet on the website; Hida sells the same chisels, but their prices are up. Weak dollar is beginning to show up in Japanese tool prices. Anyway, you can have a chisel made for you. That may or may not be worth something to you.
The makers Tasai, Imai, and Funahiro are the ones I am most familiar with, and they are all excellent. For pure edge-holding, I would say the Funahiro genju, but these are north of $150, and I don't know if HIda carries them smaller than 1/2". I would not hesitate on his white steel chisels, either. Based on the chisels I own, Funahiro's handles are a little thicker than the comparable Tasai's or Imai's, enough so you could tell it blind-folded, if that makes a difference to you. The Imai's are about an inch shorter, at 13" or a little more. My personal favorites are the Imai sword steels--they're incredibly beautiful and I can get custom sizes. I wouldn't hesitate on his white steels either, and have a very knowledgeable acquaintance who buys a lot of these. You won't go wrong with Tasai, particularly in a paring chisel. I notice his prices are up, too.
If all this gets confusing, Joel is a guy who is dead honest, and who has saved me from some mistakes in the past.
>"I suspect long blades are meant to lie flat on the work and pare away high spots."
... but then you would be better off with cranked chisels since the handles would otherwise get in the way.
Personally, I like the "intimacy" and directness of shorter blades. I think that longer handles are the way to go, as Adam suggests, for the extra leverage when pushing.
>Go better, get japanese chisels, even the lower priced HSS are way better than anything LV is producing, if their (good) plane blades are any indication..
>You know what really blows them apart, those round bronze or iron carver mallet things. I got one from leevalley, and it did more damage in a few taps, than I had done with a metal hammer in 20 years! Needless to say, a circle does not project all it's force downward.
While I hate the look of them, it is hard to beat the rubber carver's mallets for dovetails, they hit like a dead blow, are durable, & quiet. I appreciate the later as a pro who is in the shop every damn day.
If you want Japanese chisels to cut dovetails, I would get the regular Japanese bench chisels, not the ones with the pyramid shape. Particularly in hardwoods, chopping dovetails is heavy going, similar to mortising. Just be sure the side taper isn't 90 degrees (which it typically isn't on the tools sold over here), and you won't have any problems.
Cheapish Japanese chisels reground as in Krenov's books work better than the pyramid chisels, but you have to have the ethics of a butcher and the hands of a grinder to make that alteration.
I have tried just about everyone's tools, and I have a lot of LV and LN tools. LV used to sell full size Japanese plane blades for 13 bucks Can. I have been using one since the late 70s, and nobody makes a plane blade or chisel in the west that equal that mass produced Japanese blade, let alone their art blades. It has nothing to do with quality, it is just how they make their tools. It's like Porsche have worse gas mileage than Toyotas, it is all about objectives.
I like the Barr Beckworst chisels, the format is really good, and they hold an edge OK, they are easy to sharpen. Edge retention is worse than Antique cast though, and doesn't touch the better stuff out there. There is still something about them that is dead on right. They have a very thick transition to the handles, so you can really work them. I really wonder why people keep making chisels with a fancy taper in the waist.
If you look at the LN site, there is a picture of one of the Mortising chisels in use, and it is clearly an awkward piece of gear. They need to stop making chisels that reproduce others mistakes, and make some tools that work.
>If you look at the LN site, there is a picture of one of the Mortising chisels in use, and it is clearly an awkward piece of gear. They need to stop making chisels that reproduce others mistakes, and make some tools that work.
If only they would make some tools that work. I feel sorry for that fellow in the photo, Rob Cosman, who is forced to struggle with such junk.
I received my 3/8" mortise chisel from LN about a week ago, and tried it out yesterday using the shoulder technique. I can honestly tell you that it's performance was outstanding, and it wasn't uncomfortable at all in use. I also own a 1/4" Sorby (the "heavy duty" one), which is a significantly larger tool. The smaller size and better handle design make the LN much easier to control. I don't own a "pig sticker"-style mortise chisel, so they may very well be better still, but the LN is far from awkward. It's an extremely high quality tool.
