Iron placement in new woodies

Re: Tote shapes

Joel

>This AM when I looked up the smoother plane in Moxon I only saw the straight sided one which is the one referred to in the text. But yes there is that coffin shaped plane. THat it isn't reffered to in the text suggests it's a later addition -

"but a little research may reveal the smoother was in the original printing in the 1680's."

Unfortunatly there is only one way to find out. I have to track down a copy of the early edition. (so far no luck but It means I have to phycislly go to the library and see if they have a copy or if any of the other libraries around here do).

Research is a lot like an old sock. you innocently pull a little thread, and the entire sock starts unravelling.

Re: Tote shapes

Joel

>found it - the first edition (sitting in a warehouse in New Jersey) Now I have to figure out when I can go see it (the library will bring it to 42nd street but I have to figure out when I can get there)

Re: Tote shapes

Todd Stock

>It would be a kick if the original had a pretty little image of a very Krenovian plane sitting there, complete with veiner crosshatching, and no totes...

Just daydreaming...sorry.

Re: Tote shapes

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Mike, this is germane. You need to design your tools and/or usage so they're all compatible. So if you have a low bench, you'll probably benefit more from this style tote. If you have a high bench, probably you won't benefit as much. Now you tell me why you don't think this is about totes.

Pam

Re: Tote shapes

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>I've tried the C&W jack plane a number of times. This tote just doesn't fit my hand. I have med. size hands and I think that it would fit someone with smaller hands than me YMMV

Re: Tote shapes

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>From the base of my hand to the top of my middle finger is a bit more than 7", from side to side at my thumb base is 3-1/2" to 3-3/4". Have you tried holding it more towards the base?

Pam

Re: Tote shapes

Adam Cherubini

>Don't throw rocks at me. I'm not different, I'm special. At least that's what mommy says.

Re: Tote shapes *LINK*

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>I made it down to the bottom of this thread and Adam's explanation does seem plausible. Given the high bedding angle of this jack plane, one might need to exert more downward pressure. And if the wood was prone to tearout, this higher bedding angle may be worth the added effort. My woodie jack of choice has a lower bedding angle and a closed razee style tote, but that was not the question.


Top plane

Moxon Smoothers - Long

Joel

>(we are getting highly esoteric here - so if you are interested more in actual woodworking and less in history just pass this post by)

I was all set to go to bed. I had a busy day, and I spent some time wondering if Adam's theory can be put to the test by digging up an early copy of Moxon and seeing if B7, the illustration of what he labels a coffin smoother which I missed first time around was added in a later edition.

Fine - so I am about to hit the hay and i decide that because I'm wondering about this subject I should refresh myself and see what Josef Greber the author of "The History of the Woodworking Plane" has to say on the matter.

According to him the only smooth plane illustrated in that plate is the paralell sided plane (B4). B7 - which Adam says is a smoother (and I was more than prepared to agree with him) is identified by Greber as a toothing plane. If you look very closely at the mouth of the plane it has what may be determined as Teeth. HOWEVER as far as I know the plane is never discussed in the text, and the teeth like drawings (which would be on the other side of the blade and not normally visible) might be just an artists interpertation. If I've missed a reference in the actual text I would appreciate it if someone points it out to me - and of course it makes a lot of sense now to take a look at an actual original edition of the book where the engraving lines will be much cleaner than the reproduction.

Incidently Greber says (paraphrasing) that according to John HArris in the 1704 "Lexicon Technicum" 80 degrees pitch should be used for hardwood, otherwise 45 and the rest of his description agrees with moxon.

Re: example

paul womack

>Here's one of the sites on which google found me an image.

Khanjar

BugBear

Re: example

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Thanks, Paul. I don't think the C&W tote looks anything like the khanjars.

Pam

Re: Tote shapes

Todd Stock

>Razeed planes are closely associated with boat/ship builders, so the tote design likely had to be acceptable for the sort of overhead and at shoulder level work that an outboard joiner ends up doing. Not much ability to apply lots of force normal to the sole of the plane when working overhead.

I assume the nautical term was applied to the plane configuration, and not the other way round.

Is that one of Leon's jacks?

Re: Tote shapes (Msg. not for the faint of heart)

Todd Stock

>I have an SF bud with one of these...slightly used, but it cleaned up OK. Sacrifice indeed�nothing willing about it.

Narrow near the symmetrical pommel, then flared to the guard. Good call � knew it looked familiar.

Re: example

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>Lots of different traditions in the Middle East for ceremonial knives, just like there are lots of different traditions in the West for plane totes. My reference was to the Omani pattern, like these

Re: Tote shapes

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>The bottom one is. Gave it a try but the chips get clogged and it requires constant clearing. The throat needs to be larger IMHO.

Re: example

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>The top one is the first one that google showed me. I still don't see a significant similarity, although on first glance...

Pam

Re: Tote shapes

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>Be prepared to make more than one. Make your prototypes out of easily shaped wood. I like to use mahogany, but our shop generates lots of mahogany scraps. When you are studying shape, you might even consider basswood. Rough them out, attach them temporarily to the plane, and take a couple of strokes. Watch carefully for pressure points, fatigue, grip strength, etc. Sometimes you can fix the little problems by refining the shape, with a rasp, or later a scraper or sand paper, but sometimes, you get to a point where you realize you just have to start over. If the tote turns out wrong, you can at least transfer the right parts back to a new pattern, make the necessary changes, and cut out a new one. Don't even think about putting any finish on any of them before you have had a chance to use them extensively. Basswood, of course won't stand up to a lot of heavy planing. When you're sure it's right, make your permanent ones from something really durable, like a rosewood, or whatever suits you.

If you finish it and glue it into the plane before you have had the chance to use it, you will not have a very good chance of satisfying even yourself.

This general strategy works well for saw handles and lots of other tool handles as well.

Re: Tote shapes

Todd Stock

>They do take some tuning. Not nearly as much as a Harris, but enough.

Re: Tote shapes

Mike Swindell

>William,

Thanks for the advice, I think I might have to try making a few different shapes. I have some mahogany which I found at work. The tote on the C&W site looks promising - we'll see.