Sharpening Skewed Irons

Re: Sharpening Skewed Irons

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Congrats on the dado plane acquisitions!

I�m not positive what you mean when you say �re-worked to match the sole�. English dado planes seem to sometimes shrink a bit more than others. But quartersawn stock of any origin or species will shrink in thickness. If this is your problem, essentially that the blades protrude beyond the body, I recommend doing nothing at all. In theory this should be a problem, but I�ve never experienced a usage problem associating with this phenomenon.

If the problem is that the blade takes a deeper cut on one side than the other, that is indeed a problem. Before addressing the blade I suggest you check the sole for square to the right hand side. It needn�t be perfect, but should be close.

If you are now convinced the sole is square and it is in fact the iron that is not, you now can address the iron. You could try marking it as you say, but I have another way that is not for the faint of heart. Put the iron in the plane, remove the knicker and run the plane across the stone. If you are worried, you could attach a shim (thin sheet of metal or even an aluminum foil heating duct tape) to plane�s sole to protect it. This way you are using the plane itself as the ultimate honing guide. Now all you have to do is re-establish the correct bevel. I would use a grinder for that.

As for the knicker, here you must be very careful. The cross section of the knicking portion should be similar to an asymmetric football (rounded on both sides). The flatter side is the outside. This must be proud of the plane�s body. Shape the inner surface such that the resulting sharpened edges of the knicker correspond to the exact width of the iron.

As you are honing your knicker, notice also that its width tapers toward the top of the plane. That means you only get so many honings before it�s spent, so be careful. I do very little work to my knickers as a result. I also tend to yank them out once my dado is established to save them from wear. Until guys like Chad start making these things in quantity, they remain a rare and valuable commodity.

Adam

Re: Sharpening Skewed Irons

Kevin Adams

>Hi Adam--

Thanks for the quick response. Yes, I'm excited about using these wooden dados. I recently sold a 45 and have managed to replace it (although some 45-lovers will dispute this) with a set of wooden dados and a couple of wooden beading planes. Now, I'm looking for a nice wooden plow!

Anyway, to answer your questions, yes, the irons do protrude somewhat on the sides; but this wasn't my concern. They still seem to work fine. The issue is that the iron doesn't match the sole, i.e., it protrudes deeper on one side then the other so the dado will not be level. I think the soles are close to square (I know they are true), but I'll check them again later.

I didn't think about using the plane body as the honing guide. As long as I can protect the soles, I might give it a try. To be honest, I may try the less intrusive method that I suggested first of using a marker (and trial and error)!

Thanks again. I appreciate all the advice that you and others so freely offer on this site.

Kevin

Kevin

Re: Sharpening Skewed Irons

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Hi Kevin,

Its nice to have that iron dead on. So however you do it, don't skimp. This is also true of rabbets. What happens is you are trying to lean against the fence, while the plane cuts a non square feature. So in the attempts to square up the cut you abandon the fence, then the whole thing starts to go to heck on ya. I've cut many a crooked dado and they aren't pretty. Rabbets are more forgiving.

I think swapping (not sure that's what you did) a S#45 for a few dadoes and beads is a great deal. Do you have any match planes? You can do a whole lot of work with a bead, match planes, and a dado. I built all the "cabinetry" in my laundry room with little else.

Adam

Re: Sharpening Skewed Irons

L. Hanson

>For truing the iron to the sole, I've had good luck using machinist's layout dye. Coat the iron with the dye, install it into the plane, then use a scratch awl to mark out the profile of the sole onto the iron. Then sharpen using the mark as your guide. When finished, the dye comes off with alcohol.

I would use a honing guide or some similar homemade jig for getting the blade squared properly on a skewed dado iron. It's simply easier. Once the profile is established, you can go back to resharpening it freehand on subsequent sharpenings.

Leif

NorseWoodsmith.com

Re: Sharpening Skewed Irons

Kevin Adams

>Hi Adam--

By match planes, I presume you mean tongue and groove? I almost bought a nice 1/2" woodie a couple of weeks ago (I think it's still available), but decided to pass for a moving fillester instead. I figured I would get more use out of the fillester. The tongue and groove would be a single purpose plane (like for doing the back of a chest of drawers or something) and I thought I could just do shiplapped with the fillester and add the little bead detail if I wanted. I can also use the fillester for rabbets, etc. in a six board chest I'm planning to make next. It's been a long, cold winter here in New England and my poor wife is originally from Texas. It was really her mistake in marrying a Yankee, but she keeps blankets all piled up while watching TV at night. The chest will be to put them away during the day!

Thanks again for your help.

Kevin

Re: Sharpening Skewed Irons

L. Hanson

>I should mention that after marking the blade, I just eyeball the edges using a thin piece of wood or steel as a visual guide - placed strategically in front of the iron, and look dead on from the front of the jig, then adjust the angle until it's level with the top of "guide". Kind of like using winding sticks... It usually gets me close enough to the proper angle.

NorseWoodsmith.com

Re: Sharpening Skewed Irons

Kevin Adams

>Leif--

Thanks--that's a great idea. I was just going to try to trace the mouth to the iron, but the awl is a better way. I'll also break out the trusty old Veritas honing guide to help keep it straight.

BTW, you have a great site and I really appreciate all the photos, etc.

Kevin

Re: Sharpening Skewed Irons

Kevin Adams

>Leif--

I'm not sure I follow this...can you explain in a little more detail or is there a photo on your site? I'm just trying to picture what you are saying. Maybe I just need to play with it some and I'll figure it out.

Thanks.

Kevin

Re: Sharpening Skewed Irons

L. Hanson

>Umm... I knew that didn't describe it properly...

No photos I'm afraid - the last time I corrected an out of whack skew plane was before the digital camera.

Here's a diagram - this was quick and dirty - gives side and front views of what I'm hoping to convey... Hope it clears it up some. The scratch I talk about above is in the dead on view, shown as an angle (out of whack) and exaggerated *just* a bit ;-)

Leif

NorseWoodsmith.com

Re: Sharpening Skewed Irons

Kevin Adams

>Leif--

I got it now--thanks! It looks fairly simple, which is good for a guy like me. I'll give it a go this weekend.

Take care,

Kevin

Re: Sharpening Skewed Irons

paul womack

>I suggest you check the sole for square to the right hand side

I could understand handesdness in a fenced fillister, but why in a dado plane?

BugBear (who's plain skew rebate tapers bottom to top)

Re: Sharpening Skewed Irons

Adam Cherubini

>Bugbear,

I think the taper was not intentional. Just the result of quartersawn stock.

I'm not sure about your other question. I guess there are different sorts of dado planes. This is the sort I am familiar with. Obviously, the depth stops prevent left side fencing.

Cheers!

Adam

Re: Sharpening Skewed Irons

Kevin Adams

>Adam--

That's a great looking dado--it looks brand new! Mine have a great patina to them and will make good workers. I noticed that the soles are not quite square, but maybe close enough? I'm hestiant to mess with them, to be honest. I'm wondering if the dado isn't exactly level (left to right), can you just use a router to clean it up or does thsi kind of defeat the purpose of using the dado in the first place (i.e., you could just use a chisel and router)?

Thanks.

Kevin

Re: Sharpening Skewed Irons

Adam Cherubini, NJ

> I noticed that the soles are not quite square�I'm wondering if the dado isn't exactly level (left to right), can you just use a router to clean it up or does this � defeat the purpose of using the dado in the first place (i.e., you could just use a chisel and router)?

Kevin,

I try to be very careful about imposing requirements on hand tools and the features they create. I offer my opinions about such subjects, but keep in mind they are just that�opinions. I feel the issue important enough to deserve your serious contemplation and other opinions. With that in mind:

The problem I encounter is that I start the dado with the fence, but once the feature is established, I often remove or otherwise abandon the fence. At that point, if I notice the bottom of the dado (this is true of rabbets also) is crooked, I correct, thinking I wasn�t holding the tool straight. But that crooked bottom could very easily be the result of either a plane with a crooked sole, or a crooked blade (as I believe you had).

So I get stuck in this paradox: Do I hold the fence and live with the crooked bottom, or ride the sole and hope the sides are square?

Know this: If you are making a carcass and your are creating dados for drawer blades and runners, a crooked dado will mean an ill fitting (or not fitting) drawer blade. As it is with a 3/4" dado, I get beautifully tight fits using 4/4 S4S stock. Touching that dado with a chisel absolutely defeats the purpose in my opinion.

So I say there is a big advantage to be had tuning your dadoes (and rabbets) like machines. I certainly would never say this about jack/fore planes. In fact, I say the opposite.

The sole should be square to the right hand side, the mouth should be consistent (to take an even shaving) and the iron should be perfectly match the sole.

Adam

Hijack -Layout dye?

Wendell @ Murphy, TX

>I can find layout dye easily enough through mail order. Where should I look if I want to buy it locally?

Wendell

Re: Sharpening Skewed Irons

Kevin Adams

>Hi Adam--

I understand what you are saying here. I use wooden planes quite a bit (jack, smoother, and jointer) and also have some metal versions of the same (and a rabbet). The first plane I usually turn to is a small (less than 10" long) German (horned) jack. I don't get too concerned about the flatness of the sole or if the mouth is a little wide (well, I do watch the smoother), but I work a lot in softer woods. My rabbet plane is spot on (LN 073).

However, with the wooden dados, aren't you going to get some natural wear (or movement) of the sole anyway, i.e., they're probably never going to be perfect? I guess where I'm going is couldn't you just adjust the angle (by sight) of the plane after you remove the fence to get a square bottom...or again, does this defeat the purpose of using this tool in the first place?

If I wanted perfect, should I have just kept my 45?

Thanks.

Kevin

Re: Sharpening Skewed Irons

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Kevin,

As I have written, I think the bigger problem is getting an angled dado which can come as a result of a non-square sole/blade and the natural tendency to ride the sole and produce even shavings. The fix for such a situation is not good/easy IMHO.

In terms of a non-flat bottom with square sides; I would address it only if it became a problem at fit up. If it looked unacceptable (such that I felt the need to correct the dado with some other tool/operation) my knee jerk would be to fix the plane since that would be the lower energy solution.

Adam

Re: Hijack -Layout dye?

L. Hanson

>Most machinist's supply shops will have it. Some metal suppliers might carry it.3 Look for welding, machinist, and industrial supply stores in your area. "Good" hardware stores sometimes have some - but "good" hardware stores are getting rare...

Try this

Jim Reed @Tallahassee

>Normal use of layout dye is to smear it on a surface plate and rub the offending part into it to indicate highs and lows. If you just need to mark metal, use a Sharpie pen or magic marker. Once you scratch with a carbide awl, those lines jump right out.

Re: Try this

Bob Hackett

>I think you have blueing confused with layout dye.

I`ve always used prussian blue to indicate high spots as it doesn`t dry.Layout dye,on the other hand,drys very quickly.

MB

Re: Try this

Wendell @ Murphy, TX

>I've tried a sharpie. I had problems with the ink washing away when using water stones like when I trying to shape an edge on a 220 stone. Maybe the question I should ask is layout fluid water soluble? I assumed that since you needed alcohol to clean it up that it wasn't.

Wendell

I doubt it

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

>though we need one of the machinists on the forum to confirm.

Given all the coolants used in machining, I think layout dye's pretty durable.

Re: Try this

L. Hanson

>I'm not a machinist, but my experience with it is that it's not directly soluble in water, though it does scratch easily, which cheaper dyes do even more easily, so stick with a good brand like Starrett Kleenscribe. Handling it a lot can wear the dye off. Here's an example - the jar on the right was my "dunk tank" while grinding this particular piece to the line, and you can see some of the dye rubbing off on the bottom - that wasn't from the water, that was where I had another piece like it stacked on top rubbing against it before this photo was taken (sorry for the blurriness):

It didn't come off while dunking that piece to keep it cool, but wiped off quite easily with alcohol - and that's been a pretty common experience with it for me. You can see that the line you can scribe can be quite fine, unlike markers...

It's not "prussian blue" either, which is basically a paint, but is often used in a similar manner when leveling a surface - but I don't believe that the "prussian blue" is good to scribe lines into. I may be wrong, I don't have a ton of experience in the field.

Leif

NorseWoodsmith.com