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dovetail questions

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dovetail questions

#1

dovetail questions

jerome bias

>I just watched Fank Klauz's video on cutting dovetails. God is he fast. I would love to be able to cut them that fast and to have them come out that accurate. He made a good point that part of doing dovetails is simply production, and taht they need to be done quickly yet well.

I am not quite sure how to ask this, but is what I watched realistic for a neophyte to dovetails? He didn't use any guages or bevels or squares and they still fitted together. I am afraid that if I tried that I would never get my cuts to go perfectly up and down.

I was wondering if I should continue to take the time to mark out my dovetails or should I learn to eyeball the entire process?

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#2

Re: dovetail questions

David Wheeler

>I'm not about production when I do DT's. Take a look at Kingshott's video on DT to get another view of things.

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#3

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Ron in Kokomo

>I am smiling as I type this. Why in the world would you ver hope to cut dovetails like Klausz. How many thousand dovetails do you think he has cut?? He started when he was 10 or 12. There are some skills that must be honed by repetition. Sawing to a line is one of them. Takes much practice. Most of the people who post to this site do not do nearly enough hand work to be reliably good at it. I have cut several sets of these but when I have to do dovetails that will be visible, I will practice sawing to a line for a while before I attempt the real joint. I am still smiling. Expecting to cut dovetails like Klausz is a little like expecting to putt like Phil Mickelson. :) Ain't real likely. I know I can't do it

Re: dovetail questions

#4

Re: speed and eyeball layout

Dave Mount

>I'll caveat this by saying that I haven't seen the video you speak of, but I saw him do dovetails on Roy's show.

There are two notable elements of what he does -- he does it fast, and he does it mostly with eyeball layout (with the notable exception of scribing the baselines).

Speed comes with practice. It's not reasonable to set your own expectations based on his speed, other than to realize that you'll get faster with practice.

With regard to eyeball layout, this depends on what you want your dovetails to look like, as well as some on practice. Since handcut dovetails are cut to fit tails to pins or pins to tails (depending on your dovetailual orientation. . .and discrimination on this basis is prohibited), it's not really a big deal to make structurally sound dovetails using eyeball layout. The only really critical thing is that you can cut perpendicular across the board by eye, and that isn't really that hard, particularly in thinner stock (actually, thin stock doesn't make cutting perpendicular any easier, it just relaxes the tolerances). *However* -- the resulting dovetails may look exceedingly "hand cut" in that the layout may not be very regular and/or the angles may not be consistent, particularly when you are just starting.

I think most people cutting dovetails for quality furniture want the dovetails to look neat and "professional." My own goal is for people's eyebrows to go up when I tell them they are hand cut, because they think they look too nice to have been done by hand. That means even angles and consisent size and spacing. Doing that requires a measured layout unless you really are superhuman.

So I guess my answer would be first that you shouldn't expect to cut them like Klausz, though it's fair to use his skill as motivation that you will improve. As you are learning, I would suggest that you use full measured layout. I say this because there are several new skills involved in cutting dovetails. If you take eyeball layout out of the mix, then you can focus on the remaining skills initially. If you try it all at once, you risk getting frustrated because there are too many variables and it's not clear where your mistakes are and where to focus your efforts to improve. Once you develop some initial competence actually cutting the joint, go ahead and do some with eyeball layout and see what you think. If it jazzes you that the dovetails were cut not only by hand but by eye as well, then stick with it. Otherwise, stay with the 95%+ folks that measure. Keep in mind that some dovetails need only to function as a joint; others are both that and a statement of craftsmanship/artistry. Which you are cutting affects your approach.

Couple other things. With regard to measuring, every time I dovetail something I make a story stick that has the layout for that particular width. When I'm done, I throw them in the same box as my dovetail saw. Over time, you build up a library of those layout sticks and are able to reuse them on other pieces, rather than having to figure it all out from scratch each time.

Second, and not to blasphemy a master, but if you look closely at the dovetails Master Klausz cut on Roy's show, there are some gaps. Not that they'll fall apart or aren't sound structurally, but there are some gaps you can see if you look closely. I suspect that when he is making dovetails for his finest furniture, he may not cut them at the same blazing speed that he does for show.

My $0.02 (or a little more),

Dave

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#5

Sorry to say...

HC Sakman

>You just need LOTS of practice like he did. Almost 40 years worth of it, I assume.

In my humble opinion, it's a useless video IF it's meant for teaching how to do this task to the novice woodworkers.

It's proper however, if you want to show off your experience and training and say: "Look what I can do!" and/or "Look how fast I can do this!" or something along these lines.

Don't get me wrong, I am not being disrespectful to him, I am just critisizing the video. He's a master, no argument there. My point is that I don't think that video accomplishes what it intended to do though. Besides, wood of choice in the video (pine) sure helps to speed up the task.

Chico...

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#6

Jim in Burlington Ont.

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Jim in Burlington Ontario

>I watched the video and gave it a try several times in some old pine I'd picked up from a crate. I think you'd need to do it on a daily basis to pick up any speed. Just the speed he planes the drawers to make them fit is very quick. Skill like that could certainly take years to aquire.

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#7

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Kevin French, Antrim NH

>Look at the thread below, I think it ran last week . There is a lot of good info there

My suggestion is, Get Ian Kirby's book "the Complete DOVETAIL"

I use tips from others like Cosman, but most of the things you need to know and many things you didn't think of and didn't know you could do with DTs is in there.

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#8

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Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I think most people make too big a deal of cutting dovetails, which is what Klausz seems to be saying. For drawers I do it his way, except tails first; and I don't have 40 years of experience. I do have a good eye and I do not hurry the process.

When making what I hope will be a fine piece of furniture, I take more of a Kingshott approach, lay them out, do some half blind. This is especially important for carcass work, and especially if you want the dovetails to show. The Japanese, for example, think it's bragging, would try to hide the joinery.

The real trick to getting dovetails to fit is to mark the opposite side from the first. That is, it's impossible that the pins don't fit the tails, assuming you can saw to a line.

So, try it on some scrap hardwood. You may surprise yourself.

Pam

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#9

Re: dovetail questions

jerome bias

>Thanks for all of the quick replies. I like the idea of making a story stick for dovetail placement. I was wondering if there were any other dovetail tricks out there that people are using?

I can cut dovetail and have it fit, sometimes nicely sometimes not so nicely depending upon how much time I choose to invest in the joint. It is just nice to see what other's expect themselves to be able to do. It is also nice to see all of the varing perspectives on dovetails and not just the way that they are cut.

I bought the video a number of years ago. I found it helpful in that it gave me the perspective that not all dovetails in a piece of furniture are meant to be works of art, they are there to do a job.

Unfortuantely, I also found the video to be equally detremental. I found that it did not give me a fair mark from which to guage what a non master cabinetmaker should be able to execute work. I found it discouraging.

After watching the video and reading the replies, that for where I am in my skill development point, I'm probably not doing bad.

Thanks,

Jerome

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#10

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chichi

>Jerome,

I saw Franz make DT's in another video and asked the same question you did. I have practiced quite a bit and feel I do o.k. but no where near the speed of Franz. I do think we should be less anal. I also do blacksmithing and hammermarks are left in or added to make the piece unique. Why not small imperfections with DT's as long as they are structurally sound? Thanks for asking this quetion.

Bob

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#11

Cosman Video *LINK*

Don Thompson - Cutler Ridge, Florida

>If you feel that you need more advice and technique hints than are available from the Klausz video, I recommend the Rob Cosman video on through-dovetails. The dividers-aided method for laying them out is pretty foolproof. I think I have just about every dovetail video out there, and I would recommend this one for the beginner (for through-dovetails).


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Cosman Video at Lie-Nielsen

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