Frustrated Sharpener

Hollow Grind!!!

Joel

>hollow Grind - it saves hours - easy to do - and if you are hollow grinding A2 you really have to work at it to burn the steel.

I routinely hollow grind A2 and sharpen on oilstones. (not that I think oilstones produce a better edge than waterstones - they are just always set up in my shop)

Time to hollow grind - 60-90 seconds.

Time to hone + strop - 90 - 120 seconds.

Re: Frustrated Sharpener

Tom MacGregor

>I picked up a small cheap Craftsman belt/disc sander and use it for rough grinding irons that need major straightening, flattening or beveling. I clamp guide blocks to the table and can get good results with a light touch & a bucket of water nearby. My local tool dealer gets Klingspor 120 grit belts at half the price of the Sears ones & they're better quality - no thick seam to make the blade jump like on the OEM's. Gets things quickly close enough to take over with the real sharpening stuff without spending a lot of extra time at it and reduces wear on the stones (and me).

Re: Hollow Grind!!!

Richard R

>Joel,

When you hollow-grind, do you use a jig to register the blade to the wheel, or free-hand it? I recently started hollow-grinding my chisels, and it's fairly simple to keep them registered because I don't have to move side-to-side. However, trying to stay straight with the wider plane blades seems pretty tough...just wondering because the times you posted seem incredibly fast...and I'd like to know your secret :).

RR

Hone & strop

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>Can someone explain honing and stropping?

Re: Hollow Grind!!!

Joel

>I used to use a jig - now I free hand it using the tool rest to maintain the angle.

Let me backtrack.

I used to use a jig. Then one day Barry Iles walked into my shop. Barry (Managing director of Ashley Iles), needed to grind something. I pointed to my 6" high speed grinder (~$50). He complained that it was too slow and had all these things clamped to it.

Then he removed everything, dressed the wheel, and then he ground a chisel perfectly in 20 seconds. (maybe less I was really impressed).

Hummm - I said - how do you do this:

I use a Norton 3x Wheel is is about as cool running a wheel you can find. White wheels are good, even stock old wheels are useable but it gets harder.

Dress the wheel to a very very shallow convexity. This way you don't have to hit the wheel dead on and you have a lot of control. A frequently dressed wheel will run a lot lot cooler.

you need a solid rest which you adjust to the right angle by touching the tool to the wheel - if it cuts in the middle you are maintaining the grind angle. If it cuts near the edge you are shorteingin the angle, the bottom - lengthening it.

Turn grinder on - start grinding. Since there is no jig it is pretty easy to take the iron off the wheel and dunk it. do this frequently especially when you reach the end of grinding.

Keep your fingers close to the edge - 1.4" - 1/2" away- if it's slightly warm to the touch all is OK - fingers burn at about 200 degrees or so. Steel at 400 or so (see below).

Move the iron back and forth. I keep away from the corner edges and go them last because it's really easy to burn the edges. I look at the edge frequently to see that I'm grinding evenly.

when I'm bascially done I start working the corners.

I'm done when I can feel an even burr across the back. DUNK in water a Lot as you finish.

any minor uneveness is honed away when I go to the stones.

If you have a nick in the blade first grind the blade square by setting the rest horizontal and resting the back of the tool on the rest. This takes seconds and doen't burn the tool. If you try to get rid of a nick by continued grinding on the bevel you WILL burn the tool.

the dirty secret of A2:

Barry pointed out something obvious that I should have figured out long ago but didn't

All the talk about cool running wheels and slow grinding was simpley a way to make grinding easy- to-burn carbon steel safer. Barry says that even carbon steel is a little forgiving than it used to be but certainly we want to avoid it going even to light straw.

But with A2 you have a much wider range of temperature. it won't get softer and loose it's temper even if it is a straw. or a little blue. It's not a goal to try to burn the tool but it means with a regular high speed grinder there is even less worry and there is no advantage to a slow water cooled grinders.

High Speed Steel you can head to almost cherry and it doesn't get soft - it's why it's called high speed steel.

Since I can easily grind now I will routinely grind just to save honing time. Once in a great awhile I do burn a tool - but the real key is practice.

Hollow grinding also saves a lot of wear and tear on waterstones.

Re: Hone & strop *LINK*

Joel

>sure look at the link - or stop by the store.


A guide to honing

Hey Jonathan...

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>You Said, "I got a set of the LN butt chisels few weeks back"

Are these their "Bevel Edge Socket Chisel" or am I missing something? Not unusual BTW...

I�m a jig fan myself don�t care for the LV one that much. I prefer the Ellipse jig (side clamping less expensive one). Might want to try one.

I freehand my Japanese chisels. Try to only drag the blade back, don�t push it forward. This helps me to maintain a good bevel angle.

Good luck

Re: Yo Scott...

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>Hey Scott,

Yup, dats dem. The first thing I noticed about them is that they are lighter than any other chisel I have. I couldn't help but to start beating on them right away...dull. Chopped out a couple dovetails in some white pine scrap and the hornbeam handles don't even show. Don't seem to miss the leather cap of their older 750 siblings. They are well balanced and real comfy. The handle is shaped nicely and fits nice when I switch grips. I really like the stubby length also, easy to control. The leather tool roll is also a nice touch. Considering what good chisels are going for on the e*ay, I think I done good.

Re: Hey Jonathan...

Ted Shuck, Centennial, CO

>Scott wrote:

"I freehand my Japanese chisels. Try to only drag the blade back, don�t push it forward. This helps me to maintain a good bevel angle."

Funny, but I find exactly the opposite. I hone my chisels on waterstones with just enough water to wet the surface with a film. As I push the chisel, when I get the angle just right, I see the water push up in front of the edge, and I know I am honing right on the edge of the bevel. I don't get this clue when I pull the chisel back, but pull it back anyway since I am too lazy to pick it up...

Ted

Different strokes for�

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>Different folks, sorry couldn�t help myself ;^)

I find it too easy (for me anyway) to burry the edge into the stone when stroking it forward. I�ve had to flatten a few gouges out of my waterstones because of this happening. I figure do what ever works best for you.

I know what your talking about...

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>"Considering what good chisels are going for on the e*ay". No kidding man & Amen brother!

Thanks for the info!

Re: Frustrated Sharpener

Todd Stock

>Hollow's fine with the LN's - my wheel is a 10", but 8" should be no big deal. I've been honing them freehand on Nortons and they seem to be pretty darned sharp.

Re: Frustrated Sharpener

Dave Caudill

>Johnathon I too bought a set of the LN chisels a while back as I'm kind of a chisel junkie. I always want to compare new and old as I prefer the old. However the new LN chisels struck me so I bought a set. They flattened very quickly and sharpened the same. I'm not sure where you are having probelems but you can hollow grind but eventually the hollow goes away and there is no need to keep grinding them unless you knick them somehow or start to get a funky angled edge.

I chose not to hollow grind them and they sharpened in a matter of moments. I don't use a jig but I do kind of skew my chisels like you would a handplane in difficult wood. It seems to give me better control especially on wider heavier chisels. Also like a plane you are less likely to catch and put a gouge in your stones. I think you just have to relax and not press so hard letting the stone do the work.

As far as grinding goes I do both freehand and jigs. I read an article a few years back by Ian Kirby and he had a neat system for grinding for both chisels and plane irons. You build a sled or table that you grinder sits in with two uprights. Attach something such as such as a 3/4 piece of pipe so that they are level to the grinder and at a height that is comfortable and allows you the room to grind a t the angles you need. You then make wooden jigs (one for chisels and one for irons. They need to be square and have a little edge you can register the side of your iron or chisel to so it sits square in the jig. The jig needs to be sqaure so it registers with the 3/4 pipe that is 90 degrees to the grinding wheel. You just push the jig up against the pipe and extend the blade over the pipe to the right length for the desired angle and grind away. I'll try to find this article as it probably does a little better job than I just did.

Do what you can to lose the jig for honing as it limits your movement. You'd be surprised how easy it is and you already have the method down you just need to practice. Also I found that it doesn't pay to get too caught up in perfection of angles and all that. The bottom line is that you want sharp. If its a couple degrees off, so what.

Good luck.

Dave

You know...

Greg Betit, Crown Point NY

>That is a great link. I don't think we say thank you enough for things like this. This is on the par or better than books and magazines we pay good money for.

Thanks,

Greg

Diamond Plates

Mike Swindell

>I bought 3 different plates from a knife supply house, the DMT duosharp for $31 each. I hollow grind all my Ebay finds but the diamond plates work great for squaring up edges and backs. I still use waterstones afterwards up to 6000 for a mirror polish though. I find the hollow grind works best because you only sharpen the very edge and the top of the bevel. I have a 8" hand grinder that I have used for 20 years with the same Norton wheel. James Krenov had plans for a tool rest with a routed finger groove which I use. One wide rest for plane blades another one for chisels. Of course my neighbors think I'm nuts, but all my blades shave endgrain of IPE with ease.

To say it takes practice is an understatement, I still can't sharpen a knife, but my chisels and blades are sharp. I just might carve a prime rib with my 2 1/2" cast steel blade someday !!

My sharpening philosophy,and micro bevels.

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>Jonathan

I too hate sharpening. I get too impatient to return to the task at hand, and rarely have that zen experience during the sharpening process, itself. I get my zen from planing and chiseling.

And so I have searched for the quickest route to the sharpest edge. Two points are to be noted:

(1) I do not believe that a chisel needs to be sharpened to the same level of grit that a plane blade does. A chisel that is sharp enough to cut a dovetail or mortice or pare generally can do this without necessarily having the smoothest blade edge. On the other hand, unless a plane blade - especially smoother plane blades - are exceptionally smooth, then they will leave track marks on the timber surface. This is inconsequential inside a dovetail.

I sharpen to a King 6000 then hone on Verital green rouge for plane blades. I find a King 1200 plus green rouge satisfactory for chisels.

My measure of sharpness is whether I can pare pine endgrain.

The key element is making sure that the bevel has been cleanly established with a wire edge so that you are not simply polishing a blunt tip. I am sure you know this well.

(2) The quickest route to a sharp edge means that you sharpen the smallest possible area of metal.

In the past I went the route of freehanding flat bevel on waterstones. Then I went the route of hollow grinding those blades that would permit this (especially the 1/4" thick blades of my HNT Gordons). This excluded my laminated blades (such as Japanese chisels) and blades that needed strength (such as mortice chisels) and Stanley blades (which are so thin and relatively soft that they take so little time anyway). So you can see that this did not leave too much over to hollow grind.

Then I saw the sharpening video of David Charlesworth and this convinced me to try it out. Now DC will talk about using three bevels - two secondaries and one primary. I understand why, but in practice it takes so little time just to concentrate on two, a primary and a 2 degree secondary.

But I can't grind microbevels as easily freehand, so back to using a guide here. Fortunately the Veritas is tailor made in this respect as it can be dialed in for a 2 degree microbevel.

A micro bevel takes less than 30 few seconds to complete.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: Frustrated Sharpener

Steve Knight

>it's called learning (G) been there done that blamed the sharpening system. it just takes practice and a bit of knoledge.

Re: Frustrated Sharpener

Tom Price

>Well, I hollow grind on a hand cranked grinder with an 8" wheel and finish up on a Norton India stone and various grits of SC or ALZ paper or ceramic stones. Then I strop on a leather faced strop charged with yellow or green sharpening compound.

No A2 in my shop. Just plain old Berg, Witherby, Swan, Buck, Stanley and etc.. Most of my users were $2 - $3 all obtained locally or at PATINA.

Here's a pic of my grinder setup. That's a real nice Swan chisel in the Veritas grinding jig - tough steel, took a while to grind and keeps an edge real well. Not like A2, I guess but then I didn't pay any $50 for it either.

Re: My sharpening philosophy,and micro bevels.

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>Here are a couple of pics of a paring chisel sharpened at 1200 Waterstone.

Top left is pine. There is tearout evident, but this is a particularly soft and grainy piece of pine.

Top right is camphor. Another soft timber. No tearout. Smooth finish.

Bottom is jarrah. Hard timber. No tearout.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: Frustrated Sharpener

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>I'd like to get to one of the shows someday. Course I'll have to bring the kids along. My littlest would just love the rows of neatly set out tools. He's very systematic and efficient in the art of destructing. Course swmboette would have fun for five minutes then it's Daaaaad, I'm tired of looking at the dirty stinky tools.

There are those yardsales in the summer. I've got a crescent wrench and a hurwood screwdriver that cleaned up decent. Think if I spotted a nice Swan chisel like that I'd stroke out right on the spot. Kinda surprising cuz my area was the cats pajamas back in the day. Lots of local history with it's proximity to Sag Harbor. Course with all the 19th cent homes, there's gotta be one that's not been picked clean.

Course, if you tell me your tool haunts, i promise to show you pictures of all the shiny stuff I pick up for $2-$3.

Regards

Jonathan

It's all your fault

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>Course now you've sent me sharp, I know what sharp is. I plan to practice tonight, so's I should be really good at it by tomorrow:-)

Re: Frustrated Sharpener

Jeff Schmidt (KY)

>Is that a quick release bicycle hub "modification" to the Veritas?

Re: Hollow Grind!!!

Richard R

>Joel,

Thanks for the response. I'll give your techniques a try. I'm thinking that, based upon what you said, a lot of my trouble stems from the fact that I'm using the stock ( el cheapo ) wheels and the "just for show" stock rests.

RR

Re: Frustrated Sharpener

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>Thanks for the encouragement. I'm gonna have at it again, this time with different stones and see what happens. I picked up a set of the Nortons when I accidentally messed up my Shaptons. I restore my old tools on the same bench that I have set up for sharpening. The bench is made from a large piece of butcherblock I picked up at a yardsale and has a coat of polyurinate on it so's the mess wipes off easily.

Long story short, the nice thing about hand tools is I can listen to music while I work. Swmbo and the kids were out and about and I got the new Lynyrd Skynyrd tune cranked way up and howling along at the top of my lungs. I took a chisel all the way from 1000 to the 8000g stone before I started to notice that the chisel was sliding about way to much on the fine stone. Upon looking over, I realize that I have the spray bottle of WD40 instead of my "BLUE" spritzer bottle. Did I mention that my spritzer bottle with water in it is "Blue" so theres no mistaking it.

I soaked the stones in Dove and warm water, scubbed with a nylon brush, packed them in sawdust and followed by lapping repeatedly to try and draw the oil out. They cut reasonably now, but I got to push real hard to do it. Sadly, now that I'm thinking about it, I'm hoping it's the stones that's the problem. I'm guessing that the oil got in pretty deep.