Antique Desk.... I need your help

Corner close up

Paul in NJ

>If you look close you can see the pegs in the side. The drawer has a scratched bead around four sides. The molding is nailed on.

Paul Dzioba

Hardware close up

Paul in NJ

>I am pretty sure the hinges are original, there were no extra holes in the desk. Do those look like old screws? The threads look pretty regular but they have no points. The screws for the locks look more modern, perhaps they were replaced. The locks are all staked together, there doesn't appear to be any welding. The 90 degree fold in the sheet metal looks more crude than modern.

Paul Dzioba

Re: oops better Hardware close up 

Paul in NJ

>

A Drawer

Paul in NJ

>The drawers were very interesting to me. They had through dovetails in the back, blind in the front. The over cuts for the front dovetails were more than an inch long. The bottoms were slid into a groove and nailed off to the back. Flipping the drawer over you could see how a jack plane left scallops when thicknessing and for reducing the edges to fit in the groove, just like mine for Adam's Challenge.

Thanks for sticking with me. Would any of you hazard a guess how old this desk is?

Paul Dzioba

Re: Antique Desk.... I need your help

R.J.Whelan

>Paul �.

Disclaimer: I�m not a preservationist so my observations and comments should be taken with a large grain of salt.

1. The finish does not look like milk paint to me; my guess is some earth pigment mixed with linseed oil.

2. I refinished a piece in roughly the same condition (for want of a better description: a kitchen hutch) built from pine and poplar (like yours). Before I attempted to do anything that might hurt the value I convinced the customer to have an expert take a look at it and determine if it was very valuable. In my case the piece was determined/estimated to be circa 1850 probably from Ohio and to have been produced by some unknown craftsman. They placed the value (in 1993) to be $600-$1000. Thus armed with a fairly reliable estimate of value the customer and I decided to take an approach of �arresting further decline�.

3. I repaired loose glue joints with hide glue (very reversible).

4. All of the hardware was intact and I cleaned it by immersion in mineral oil for several days and gently rubbing with a scotch brite pad � this resulted in mediocre cleaning but the hinges worked smoothly and most of the dirt (and some of the rust) came off.

5. The four knobs appeared to have been turned and the edges bore serious damage. Short of turning replicas I couldn't figure out a way to repair the existing knobs so I decided leave them alone.

6. I cleaned the surface of the piece with a 50/50 mix of mineral oil and naptha. I used an old tooth brush for detail areas (mostly scratch beads on drawer front) and a shoe brush for the larger areas. I lot of color appeared to be coming of when I first started so I stopped and dried the piece off. Upon examining my cleaning fluid I observed a lot of sediment on the bottom: this I poured through a coffee filter and looked at the sediment with a magnifier and determined (to my satisfaction) that the majority of color being removed was dirt and oxidation. After having the customer look at the newly lightened (but clean) section I had cleaned we decide to proceed.

7. After drying the piece and allowing it to sit for a few days I applied a coat (1#) of blonde dewaxed shellac.

8. I followed the sealer with another coat of blonde shellac (2#)

9. Gently rubbed the second shellac coat with fine bronze wool.

10. A coat of seedlac to add a bit of color (a little squirt of turpentine to slow the cure).

11. Another gentle rub out with bronze wool.

12. A final coat of amber shellac (3#) followed by a final rub out with bronze wool.

13. Several days of drying because I was really worried about blush developing.

14. A coat of beeswax applied with a shoe brush and buffed off with an old, soft terrycloth towel.

After I was done the same appraiser looked the piece over and declared that I had not substantially hurt the value.

Hope some of this is useful �. rj

Re: A Drawer

Todd Hughes

>I would guess mid 1800's. looks to be in pretty good condition and I don't think much should be done to it. If it is missing it's knobs I would get some old ones to use on it that you could put on with out fooling with it much.Personaly I would then just wipe it down with a rag and maybe wax it and be done. I for sure don't think you should worry about the "ugly" key holes as that is how they are supposed to look on a piece like this .....Doesn't look like an uncommon piece or real vaulable ,[maybe $300-$500 tops?] but still one that deserves to be left alone I feel.....Todd

Re: Antique Desk.... I need your help

Sam Simpson

>Hi Y'all,

Paul, I think you are on the right track with the age of the desk. 1830-1850 To put it earlier you would be looking for earlier hinges.

I'm sure you can appreciate how difficult it is to identify things from photographs, but here are some observations.

The current hinges appear to be cast in place hinges. Look on the ends to see if they have a hinge pin. I suspect they do not, and that the two halves are held together by a dimple and nipple which are cast into the two halves. These hinges date from 1850. (I haven't researched the data on this hinge in some years, so memory only on that date) The screws that hold them are of a type often dated as early as 1830, but more often suited to 1850. (the type of forming on the head and the amount of hand filing will help to narrow it down, along with the jaw marks that held the blank for engine turning) The lock is of a type that dates as early as 1780 but used through the civil war years. The drawer sides appear to have been replaced. But I'm going by lack of wear and freshness of colour. Very hard to see in a photograph. That type of lock was often nailed in place. It is common to see later screws replacing the nails. (most likely when the lock had to be re-keyed)

My guesses about the finish are pure speculation, and are based on what you say about the way it behaves while cleaning and by the photographs. I think there is a dry burnt sienna pigment mixed with shellac and applied all over the exterior. I think that large areas of this finish have worn off over the years and have been replaced by a pigmented wax, as part of general upkeep and repair. In addition there is dirt. For restoration of the finish I recommend careful cleaning with the British Museum cleaner that I have posted before. (I think it's in the archives somewhere. If not I'll put it up again) Anything that is removed by this cleaner is not going to be an original part of the finish (so long as you take care and don't get too aggressive) Once cleaned you can identify the remaining finish as either oil based or shellac based. (I vote for the latter, tests will tell) The touch up becomes a conservationists call of judgment. Personally I would fill in the missing finish and polish the entire surface to a pleasing luster.

Regards Sam Simpson.

Re: A Drawer

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>The screws in the hinges are probably your best clue. I agree, they look to be original. Screws like this were produced, by machine, for only a very short time. Before this type of screw, they were cut by hand. These are too regurlar for that. Not long after they figured out how to make them by machine, they figured out how to make the ends pointed, and all the original machines became obsolete overnight. So, machine made flat ended wood screws, if original, are a very precise indicator of age. Regrettably, I forget what the dates are. Someone here knows, I'm sure.

Your kerfs in the drawer fronts for your half blind dovetails are very typical. The more you can saw, the less you have to chop when you get down into the corners, and therefore, the faster you can make the drawers. You will find these elongated kerfs on cabinets as well well as on drawer fronts. I don't like doing them that way, but most people who make reproductions have no problem withe replicating this period detail. As Adam points out in another message this weekend, us modern furniture builders spend way too much effort making the parts that won't be seen by the customer a lot neater than they need to be. I think he attributes it to peer pressure. Our customers don't go to woodworking shows, or old tool auctions, or discuss things with us on WoodCentral, but a bunch of other joyners do, and they all like to show off their precise joinery, exquisitely tuned tools, etc. Most of our customers recognize a dovetail, but wouldn't be able to differentiate between a through and a half blind, or a between a half pin or a half tail. Not many more would be able to look at a dovetailed joint and tell you whether it had been cut with a saw and chisel or a router. They probably would not raise a flag if your drawer backs had half blind DTs, just like the fronts.

re. the drawer bottoms, your description is correct. They should be slid in and attached only with nails into the back of the drawer. If done expertly, the groove in the front should be completely hidden by the tail in the side.

Re: Antique Desk.... I need your help

Adam Cherubini

>Funny you posted this topic since we were discussing finishing earlier. Here's my two cents;

First off, I'd like to challenge the value of the piece. Or at least not to dismiss it. Over the years tastes change. There is a current, insatiated appetitie for rustic. Pretty sure it's also a much bigger market than the market for Chippendale.

Altho I use milk paint today, and we used it on the challenge pieces, experts think its use wasn't typical outside PA german communities. I use it without any delusion that its use was typical. That said, its not easy to tell the difference between old milk paint and oil based paint. In fact, both paints have very similar ingredients including identical pigments. So one has milk, the other has lead for opacity.

But I think the trick to cleaning is to avoid the use of solvents So Todd's approach would very likely be the method used by a museum conservator. The Williamsburg conservator gave a nice presentation at the "Working Wood in the ..." conference. We kept asking him where we could buy the concoctions he was using. So he suggested using a capful of amonia in a quart of water as a reasonable starting place. They tend to wax after that. DeMuzio likes briwax. He also uses shellac and dips his wet brush into earth pigments and pounces that onto the surface to build up texture.

But I'm with Todd. Clean it so it doesn't soil some lady's dress, add and little wax and be done. If somebody finds a provenance, you will have done the right thing.

Adam

Could go for more...

Todd Hughes

>At auction I suppose it could go for a bit more then I first thought, is rather unusual to see these type desks with pull out drawers I think.Most that I see dont have drawers just the top that lifts up and that could add to it's vaule perhaps.The non drawer desks I see sell all the time for $200-$350 at auction. While it is nice that it does have some color to it and hasn't been skinned like so many antiques you see if it was green or blue the vaule would be more in my experance. .....Todd

British Museum Furniture Restoration Formula

Don Thompson - Cutler Ridge, Florida

>Posted by one of our Australian friends, IIRC:

Both Shellac and oil finishes will drink dirt over a period of time. To clean the finish it is necessary to slightly soften the surface as you clean. This will release most of the dirt and get you back to the original clean finish. You can imagine, this is a little more delicate than just washing down, but not such that anyone couldn't have a try.This is a recipe given out by the British Museum for furniture restoration :-

8 oz Turpentine

4 0z Denatured alcohol

2 oz White Vinegar

1 oz Murphy's oil soap

1 oz Brasso

1 tea spoon household ammonia

Mix in the order given and shake well.

Test the area to be cleaned and find out if the finish is shellac (susceptible to softening with alcohol) if so you might want to back out a little alcohol, but it isn't necessary if you keep your eye on the work. If all is going well and you just would like the solution to be a little more aggressive, you can add a little more ammonia (but not more than double)

Use in a well ventilated area.

Thanks everyone!

Paul in NJ

>I appreciate your thoughtful response's and they will be helpful to me. Sam you were a 100% correct about the hinges.They are cast with no hinge pins visible from the ends. After the mechanical repairs I am leaning to a light cleaning and possibly some wax. About the wax... Should I apply it to the areas where the wood is bare? Should I add some pigment to the wax? Thanks again for all your help.

Paul Dzioba

Drawer Sides Look Replaced

Bob Smalser

>Hardware looks good for the middle-late 1800's.

Wood used in the drawer sides looks a bit new and a little wide-ringed to be original to the piece.

They look to be spruce or fir or SYP from here, too...not White Pine.

Keep Hands From Mouth and Eyes.

Bob Smalser

>Linseed and pigment...maybe Red Lead (Lead Tetraoxide), which was common...sounds right to me as the original finish for a country-made piece like that.

Such a soft finish would bleed pigment into about any solvent applied...even water.

A good , reversable museum wax is appropriate. But if the piece is to see continued use, for the bare spots you might consider a light coat of 50-50 linseed-turps with a tad of Japan Drier added prior to the wax.

Re: Drawer Sides Jersey Red Pine

gtools

>Looks to be a country capenters piece, prob made by the church carpenter/member, the thick drawer sides appear to be made of Jersey red pine. you can see alot of this stuff in the old Quaker meeting houses (floors, furnishings etc), NJ is proximate to Phila/New York so early imported/industrial hardware/screws/nails show up as opposed to manufactured close by......gtools