Don't you think it's silly?

No, not at all

Hoa Dinh in Alameda

>Please note that the measurement instruments in question, in addition to measure wood, they are also used to measure woodworking tools/machines. The accuracy tolerances may not be as tight as in metal working, but still need to check.

Also, accuracies down to thousandth of an inch can be required in measuring wood too. A 0.005" measurement can make a big difference in a M&T joint.

The absolute measurements (how thick is the boards?) are not important in most cases. But relative measurements (do all the boards have the same thickness?) is just as important as in metal working. It's nice to have the instruments to quantify the measurements.

-- Hoa

Really? But.....

ken c

>Hoa,

Why I'd agree that M&T joints and dovetails to name but two need "good" fit-up, I don't think a straightedge or a plane sole flat to a tenth will help one iota in either endeavour.

Ken

Truth is...

Christopher Schwarz

>Ken,

Most of us (with the exception of Adam with his, ahem, "magic" straightedge below) use both hand and power tools. So my straightedge should be stored nicely, just like you would store a plane or chisel so it doesn't rust. Mine hangs on a bent nail on the wall.

And believe me, I'm not talking about a couple thou when it comes to steel straightedges deforming. Our Starrett is such a freaking banana I cannot even use it for knife work. It rocks back and forth on a board.

Wooden straightedges, which I use all the time, can be stored beneath the bench and trued occasionally when the humidity moves them.

cms

Re: No, not at all

Dean J in MN

>

Also, accuracies down to thousandth of an inch can be required in measuring wood too. A 0.005" measurement can make a big difference in a M&T joint.

True, but you don't have to measure anything to know if the joint fits. It does or it doesn't. If it is tight you pare a bit. I don't measure with a caliper then figure out a way to take off the .005".

The absolute measurements (how thick is the boards?) are not important in most cases. But relative measurements (do all the boards have the same thickness?) is just as important as in metal working.

Hmm, I rarely care if all my boards are the same thickness. For example, I'm building a small table right now and I have no idea if all four aprons are the same thickness. Nor do I care, it makes no difference at all. (Ok, within reason, if one was 2" thick it would be bad, as my legs are only 1-1/4" sqaure) In fact I doubt the inside face is even parallel to the front face.

I didn't care if the boards I glued up to be the top were the same thickness...

I don't even care if the legs are the same size, just close to the same size. If I set them on the bench top and they are about the same, I'm good. That "about the same" can be seen and felt, no need to get out precision tool. The fact that two of the leg faces are square and they are the same length matters, but that is all.

Now, if I had a shop full of machines I may feel differently. But with hand tools, I personally don't see the need for that kind of precision.

To each their own.

-Dean

Re: how to get old

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>The older I get the more I care about such things. I don't have a 48" Starret straightedge, but perhaps someday I will. It will be nice to know the best way to store it.

As a young bull in a china shop, I focused completely on results, and didn't care a hoot how the results were achieved. As I age, I see more and more that the journey is the trip. How you get from point A to point B is what it's all about. I work in my shop to relax and also to grow my skills. There I can focus on how the work is done, which might be a whole lot more useful than the results of the work. If I concentrate real hard, perhaps I can grow up to be a really crusty old fart like Forrest; I think it's worth aiming for.

Common misunderstanding

david charlesworth

>Ken,

This is a common misunderstanding.

It is sometimes necessary to use fine shavings on difficult wood to get a clean finish.

0.001" shavings are often needed. (0.0005" are possible)

Suppose your plane sole is 0.003" hollow in length. You will not be able to plane a straight edge with a 0.001" shaving.

Alternatively if you have a two thou bump on your plane sole, just behind the mouth, you will not be able to take a one thou shaving at all.

Hope this makes sense,

David Charlesworth Yes, the bearded hairy one definitely not a clone

Re: Common misunderstanding

ken c

>David,

Get a hair cut you hippy! ;-)

I dunno, I doubt that 1% of the people who debate

Lie Nielson vs Veritas ad nauseum and then spend a lot of dosh buying said plane ever cut a 1 thou shaving. And I wonder in reality would they need to?

Not only would the plane sole need to be flat to maybe a tenth, but the iron would need to be square to significantly less than a thou too - at least over the width of the shaving - I know that you're a cambered blade man.

My old man produced some wonderful furniture with little more than a rusty old hammer, a few chisels, a couple of handsaws and a couple of rough old planes - one with a brazed side. I bet his planes ween't flat to a tenth!

Ken

P.S. If you're ever in the SF bay area email me and drop by (unless you follow Portsmouth F.C. that is)

Re: Truth is...

ken c

>Chris,

Stick it over your knee and bend it back.

Good enough for Government (wood) work.

;-)

Ken

Re: Common misunderstanding

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Ken,

May I add that I think you should split up your interesting point and abandon one side. Dean's table is a great example of why you are right on the money. But in my experience, you must use caution applying that same logic elsewhere.

Mortise chisels need really straight sides to work properly. Like ridiculously straight. Our friend Todd often suggests trying a plane before using it. That's good advice. But planes really do work better when their soles are flat. Its not a matter of degrees either. Some wood you'll be able to smoothen, and some you won't.

Interesting, respectfully offered point. No flame suit necessary here. I just think it would be a mistake to suggest there is no place for precision. Instead, I think you should say precision has a place and isn't appropriate everywhere.

Adam

P.S. I used to "correct" flea market try squares thinking I needed a perfect square to do good work. I don't do that anymore.

One from the peanut gallery

Eric Hedberg

>David,

I buy part of your argument about flatness to a point, but wouldn't the results be just as dependent on the length of the sole. For instance, given the same fault wouldn't it be more pronounced on a shorter plane (3-4) than a longer plane (5-6)? And on that track, wouldn't some of the error disappear in the adjustment of the blade depth relative to the sole when you're setting up for the thin shaving. Eric (Just itchin for an argument;-)

HOW DARE YOU!!!!

Gerry Doll

>Ken,

As a newbie who has just spent over a year in time, an a$$ load of cash on old tools, plate glass, SC paper, waterstones, lapping plates, lapping grits, straight edges, feeler gauges, micometers, granite surface etc, ad nauseaum, I AM STUNNED BY YOUR POST...

Could it possibly be that I have been led astray?? Is it not absolutely necessary that you be able to count the individual hairs in each nostril in the reflection from the back of a chisel??? How can a #8 possibly function without being within .0001 of dead-on, absofreakinglutely, dead flat??

Your post has seriously shaken my faith in other posters on this board, and in humanity in general. If what you suggest is true, I have wasted an extreme amount of time and energy.

Gerry,

Considering taking up fingerpainting

Re: Truth is...

Christopher Schwarz

>Ken,

I tried that -- honestly. I even beat the table saw with it (not really). No luck.

cms

Re: HOW DARE YOU!!!!

ken c

>Gerry,

Ahhhh, but I said that I didn't think it was *necessary*. I didn't say that it wasn't FUN!

Ken.

Everything is relative

Bob Hackett

>Most times I don`t see the reasoning in cutting each and every piece of wood in a project to the tolerances some make themselves adhere to. I do understand maintaining the tools used to make the projects to a level that will allow those type of tolerances if the need arises.It`s just comforting to know your tools are capable of doing the most accurate work possible.

When I was working as a metal fabricator my co-workers used to ask why I held myself to such a close fit"The weld will cover it" they`d say.They never understood why my projects had less distortion upon completion.They sometimes had to cut and reweld other people`s critical assemblies or have follow on work adjusted to hold tolerance."Good enough" was never an option as far as I was concerned.

My brother is a machinist in an optics company.Some of the work is performed on machines with granite ways as they have found that cast iron reacts to temp changes too much to hold tolerances for some of thier work.The roughing stage is sometimes held to plus or minus .0002.Do I need that type of tolerance in what I do?H**l no!I do appreciate that granite surface plate he bought cheap and gave me after it had gone out of tolerance for them though.

The more accurate the tools the easier the work becomes.This allows you to build skills faster and enjoy the work more.

How sharp does a plane iron really need to be?Try planing with an iron sharpened by an "over the top" sharpness freak and you may find yourself spending more time standing at the stones.Accuracy has the same way of spoiling you for anything less.

YMMV,of course.

Mainely,Bob

here is some data to consider

bill tindall

>Surely I must have misunderstood your point.

A joint made by the intersection of two pieces will not come together properly (look bad) if the angles are off by 1/4 degree. A proper fitting mortise and tennon, and I would presume a dovetail to but I haven't miked one, needs to be within +/- 0.002-3" to fit right. A properly mortised hinge is essentially zero tolerance. In my jewlery box entry I was fussed at, justifiably, for a drawer that didn't fit right and it was 1/32" than the ones that looked perfect. These examples illustrate why good cabinetry is usually not cut and installed but rather the pieces are fit to be right- tennons shaved, hinges scribed, angles "shot (I suppose that is a correct word since a "shooting: board is used) and drawers planed to fit (when they are big enough). I can't imagine a piece anywhere on a cabinet where the dimensions would allow even a 1/32" error in size, least it be an overhanging top or the length of a foot.

Re: Don't you think it's silly?

Ernie Miller

>If you have a nice tool isn't it a good idea to learn how to store it properly? I can't say I use a straight edge on my woodworking projects. My jointer will make a board straight enough for me.Then a marking or panell gauge will set the paralell side line. I do use a measuring stick but mostly a story stick. Whe I am setting up a machine it is nice to make it as true as possable. tell me why I shouldn't. I have never lapped a plane to make it dead flat but I have to remove rust and gunk. I don't know what dance you have in mind but I'm sure some one will lead you all across the ballroom.

Some thoughts (kinda long)

Dan Donaldson

>I am not anal about a flat sole on a plane, but....

I have a LN #4, and #5 and #6 Stanley planes (both Stanleys have Hock blades and chipbreakers). With the #6 and the LN, I could get shavings just about any thickness I wanted, from a fairly rank cut, to ones that you can read through. With the #6, I could not get a decent shaving no matter what I did. I checked the sole with a straightedge, and it had a VERY slight dip in front of the mouth, the rest of the sole was "good enough" for me. I used a file, scraper and sandpaper to get the area in front of the mouth flat all the way across and reasonably smooth. It is not mirror, just basically smooth. After that, the plane performed just like the other two. It really made a difference. The amount of the dip could not have been more than a couple of thou, but it sure affected the working of the plane.

Whenever I get another plane, I do a quick check, but unless there is something really weird, I always try it first and if it works well, don't touch it. In this case, a bit of flattening really made a difference.

I would guess that a plane set up and tuned by masters like Chris or others might work better than mine, but I would rather work wood than metal;-) However, sometimes a bit of tuning can make all the difference, and in this case, it was only thousandths that I was talking.

Re: here is some data to consider *LINK*

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>don't suspect that Ken's tolerances would eeven work here:-)


1/4" in 20'

Seeing is believing

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>Ken, have you seen David's video on planing? This is a great illustration of the effect of a plane sole that is a few thousands of an inch out of flat.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: here is some data to consider *LINK*

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>if ya' wanna end up like this


What??

Re: here is some data to consider *LINK*

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>Layout is everything


What???

Re: here is some data to consider *LINK*

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>have a nice day:-)


What???

I Agree

Todd Hughes

>I think alot of this is from people coming from being Machine users and want to do perfect "machine" work even when they are doing it by hand. Of course to many there is a certain attraction in fettling and fooling with stuff and i guess a pride in having somthing "perfect" even when it isn't needed or even desired. In my experance this is often seen alot more in the hobbyist then the professional who is more concerned with the results and getting the work done.I used to be amazed when i would read here of some guy that spent a couple days getting his plane sole NASA Flat and with out even trying it first! I started to realize to them it was more important to have the plane perfect, just like they read it should be, then perhaps the actual result of how the plane worked. Its all part of the game and that is fine if that is what they want and they get enjoyment out of it. I have to confess I was never of this precision mindset! ....Todd