Any experience riving BIG wood

Re: Any experience riving BIG wood

Jim Crammond in Monroe, Mi.

>Dave,

Have you checked with any sawyers with portable mills? They are probably used to handling logs this size or bigger, so thay might have a simple solution and also some guidance as to whether they would prefer to saw it as a whole log, half or quarter.

I've split both cherry and red oak logs about that size and it is not really difficult or time consuming. The tools you'll need are a hatchet or axe, sledgehammer, a couple metal wedges and a couple wooden wedges(gluts). With the log laying on the groun you start a wedge in the end at the center. Once the split begins to run along the length of the log, you put a glut in the crack and drive it in. Like the pictures of Abe Lincoln splitting rails.

Drew Langsner gives a good explanation of the process in his book A Chairmaker's Workshop and Country Woodworking. These may be available at your library.

Jim

Re: Any experience riving BIG wood

Dave Mount

>Dave--

I've riven pieces from large logs (oak, ash, and white cedar) but never cherry. With that huge caveat, I'd have to say that I wouldn't expect cherry to be very cooperative. It would need to be super straight, straighter than any cherry I've ever worked with, but maybe that's what you've got. Keeping a thin riving going for 6-8 feet in uncooperative wood is a trick.

Another thing to consider is the figure of whatever wood you've got. Although QS cherry is interesting in its own way, most people feel that cherry is at its best when flatsawn, because the delicate grain figure is shown to best advantage.

Many turners (I'm guessing you're not or you'd already be there) would love to get ahold of blocks like that -- maybe you could arrange a trade. . .

All that said, if the alternative is to burn it, go for it. If you do, you'll still need to sticker it. If the tree is straight and free of stress the resulting riven planks will probably show little inclination to deform, but you still need to get the air circulating around them.

If you get serious about moving the logs, you can move large logs surprisingly well by using wooden "rollers". Go buy a turned wooden fencepost or two, maybe 4" in diameter, and cut several pieces a couple feet long. By "caterpillaring" then along the length of the log, you can move a log in the path of its long axis surprisingly well, although it sounds like the pitch of your back yard may be so steep as to make the log hard to control, don't know. Large logs can also be loaded onto trailers effectively by hand by crosshauling.

I'm guessing (the real stats are available if you want to seek them out) green cherry will probably be around 55 pounds per cubic foot. So a 6' log 14" in diameter will weight about 350 pounds by my math. . .

Work safely, gravity is a cruel master. . .

Other Dave

suggestion and question

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>I'd like to chime in here with my suggestion.

I too have riven logs for furniture parts. I recommend folks rive to make lumber they can't buy (big turning squares, 4x4's, quartersawn things etc.), but in this case I'd be tempted to make an exception. This really isn't that large a tree. I'd be inclined to only halve it and cut the halves to some managable and furniture sized project (6' maybe). I'd stack them near where they fell. In the future (many years from now), they will be lighter- light enough to move. At that point I'd try to put them on a band saw* and saw out some wide boards. As soon as you quarter it, and provided you don't want material for leg turnings, I think you've wasted the value of your effort. Wide air-dried cherry (again yours isn't that wide) seems worth going after. At least you could do this with the bottom most pieces.

*Not having a bandsaw and having never used one, I can only speculate about the practicality of sawing something like this by machine. I'd probably do this by hand which could take an hour per cut and a special saw.

One question I have is whether this is a species that benefits from taking the bark off. Last cherry I worked, I removed the bark. Walnut fell off. I think white oak should be left on?

Adam

P.S. I liked what my friend Jim said about the tools (Hi Jim!). I think more wedges/gluts is better. I'd work this species for the first split with two wedges in the sap not end grain at 12 and 6 o'clock. A third could be added in the pith, then run the crack on both sides of the log simultaneoulsy. So maybe 5 or 6 wedges and as many gluts. Working one side, I think 3 wedges minimum. I use a steel maul, but you must be careful (metal slivers, etc). I found some beatle rings and I'm making a wooden commander for this season. This is a safer approach.

Some guys puts rings on their gluts, I prefer no rings. For cross linked woods like white oak, I drop the gluts next to the wedges, yank the wedges, then chop away at the cross fibers with my hatchet. Without metal in the crack, I needn't worry so much about the hatchet. Also, don't stick your hand in the crack.

Re: Any experience riving BIG wood

Philip Duffy

>Dave, Have you thought about using a chain saw to rip the cherry sections down the middle? I have done that several times in the past year with good success. You need to be careful that the cut does not wander off center and you want to be sure to not run the saw into the ground, but the process is easy and you end up with managable sized pieces. There are special rip blades for chain saws that work wonders. Good luck, either way. Phil

Re: Any experience riving BIG wood

Dale Stansbery

>Get several guys lined up (free beer ought to do it). I once hauled out 4 cherry logs about 100 yards slightly uphill by hand with two other guys. They were 12-14" diameter by 9'. The key was a log hook that is centered on a handle about 5 feet long. I think it is old military surplus, and it gives great advantage to holding on to the logs. You could do the same thing with a rope or small chain around the log with a pole stuck through it.

Agree

Roger Nixon

>As Adam said 12"-18" really isn't big. If you quarter it, you will be surprised how little lumber you will net but you can get some great stock in thicker sections.

I had some Osage Orange and Honey Locust logs about that diameter that I split in quarters and sawed on a 14" bandsaw with riser and a homemade carriage. About 3' in length is all I can handle by myself. It is really disappointing to see how little wood is left when you square up the pieces especially with all the sap wood on Honey Locust.

I've never split cherry so I don't know what that is like. Thanks, Adam, for the gluts tip. Honey Locust is very cross linked and hard to cut apart with metal wedges in there.

Amen to two wedges at 180�

Jeff Schmidt (KY)

>I recently split a red oak log of this size and attempted the single wedge in the center. No go. Using two wedges working from opposing sides at the end, just as Adam described, started things quite nicely.

There is something very rewarding about working timber from the felled state. It can be back breaking work, but very satisfying.

Re: Any experience riving BIG wood

John K in Hastings, MN

>I'd look at sectioning it in 6 to 8' lengths, then using a chainsaw mill to turn it into 12/4 or 8/4 slabs, then move it out.

John

Re: Amen to two wedges at 180�

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

> Using two wedges working from opposing sides at the end...

How do you do this? Roll over the log? Work from the sides?

Thanks,

Pam

Re: Amen to two wedges at 180�

Adam Cherubini

>Using two wedges working from opposing sides at the end...

How do you do this? Roll over the log? Work from the sides?

I stand on top of the log with a mallet in each hand and hit both wedges simultaneously. Then I beat my chest and....

ah..just the thought of wood butchering.

Hey I got to meet St. Roy at Williamsburg. What a character!

"Trees are evil and deserve to be punished"

Roy Underhill

Tarzan! :)

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Did you catch the St. Roy video from the SAPFM meeting in Williamsburg a couple of years ago, the one in which he dressed a log? What a treat, kept expecting him to chop off a leg with that axe. Then I visited Williamsburg for the first time in about 20 years, and the woodworkers are doing it his way, and quickly, truly amazing.

Pam

Re: Tarzan! :)

Adam Cherubini

>Yes I know the video you speak of! He gets a chunk on his axe, and instead of taking it off as he should, he lifts the axe with the chunk stuck on it, yells, and bangs it down. I do that as well and it similarly never works. Its a pointless, futile act, so typical of my gender!

The video was on FWW's website. Oh he's a character.

Adam

Re: Tarzan! :)

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I've seen women do that, too, but it did work, or at least the log got split.

Pam

Re: Tarzan! :)

Mark Harrison -- in Sydney, Australia

>Wrong tool. Use a block splitter (I presume we are talking about firewood here...). The first time I used a block splitter (there wasn't an axe) I laid into this block (twisted and gnarly Red Gum) I was expecting the usual saga with an axe, several blows and a big sweat etc. Well, this big chunk of wood was rived in two in one blow. I fell forward as I wasn't expecting this to happen.

I picked myself up, looked at the block splitter and I felt like Paul Bunyan. Wow!

Thanks - dont' think portable saw mill will work

Dave (Arlington, VA)

>Hi Jim -

Thanks for your advice.

On the portable saw mills, I haven't checked with any local sawyers, but I'm pretty sure they won't work in this case. This area of our yard is pretty much inaccessable to any thing - except humans and animals - on foot. If there were saw mills that could be disassembled then the reassembled, the closest we could get it to the tree would be 10 feet - even then we'd have to get the log down an extra 10 feet in elevation. Hard for me to see how that could be done without destroying the small ornamental trees, azaela's and other bushes and flowers beds that lie below it on the slope.

Thanks for your list of tools I'd need. I think I have everything but the gluts or wooden wedges - and that's one of the reasons (I think) riving came to mind.

Also I will check the local library for a copy of Lagsner's book.

I really appreciate your thoughts on this.

Regards -

Dave

Yep - firewood is the other option

Dave (Arlington, VA)

>Thanks, Dave. I appreciate your words.

I appreciate your comments about the nature of cherry. I hadn't thought about that, but my only other option is firewood - if I can't make this work.

As for moving the logs - I'm guessing it would be hard for most folks to imagine how steep out backyard is. I've never lived in a place where it's quite like this. It heavily wooded, cherry, dogwood, oak, maple, and black locust (lots of black locust) - but it's all up on a series of inclines . When you stand on the back of our lot line your line of sight is easily over the top of our two-story house. There is a little section of the yard (I call the plateau), but it's not very close to the cherry tree -- and is still further uphill. So I don't think rollers will do.

But I also want to say thanks for your weight estimate for these logs. I was wondering about that- just to get a sense of how manageable they would be after they'd been riven.

Again, many thanks!

Regards -

Dave

It's hard to know where to start....

Dave (Arlington, VA)

>Hi Adam -

You make so many good points and raise so many good questions, it's hard to know where to start.

As for the "biggess" of the tree - you're absolutely right. I know it's not that big. However, I've just finished making a bowsaw out of black locust (that fell in the backyard during Hurricane Isabel) and all the pieces were riven. I was amazed at how easy it was. Absolutely no need for a bandsaw or any other kind of saw. I think it was this order of scale that led me to call this a "big" cherry.

As for riving them in half and leaving them where they lay - that's worth thinking about, but I'm not sure it would work for us....especially if we're talking about leaving logs laying around for YEARS. I think my wife might have a thought or two about that.

As for bandsaws - I too don't have one, but I might be able to persuade someone from the Guild to help me out.

Again, thanks for your thoughts on the use of gluts, their number and the technique. But if your're going to work the split down both sides wouldn't you need to start in the sap at 3 and 9 o'clock? I'm a bit confused about that point.

I do need to get some glut (or wedges). That's the one thing I don't already have for this process.

Anyway --- I really appreciated your post. Thank you very much.

Regards -

Dave

Special rip blades

Dave (Arlington, VA)

>Hi Philip -

Special rip blades for chainsaws. I didn't know that. That's very interesting.

I had considered this approach, but I was concerned about using the chainsaw on the slope on our backyard. Also I'm not sure my chainsaw has enough umph to get this job done, nor was I confident that I had the skill to do this with a chainsaw.

Perhaps I should reconsider this, but I had thought about it and moved on. There's so little area up there on which to get a good footing.

Anyway. Thank you for your post. I am grateful.

Regards -

Dave

That's impressive.

Dave (Arlington, VA)

>Hi Dale -

That's encouraging to hear of your success with your cherry logs. It may come to something like that. Beer can be a great work incentive! I hadn't thought of chains. Interested. I had thought of rope - but maybe chains would be better.

My wife and I carried 1000 pounds of (dry) concrete mix and enough treated (i.e. wet)lumber up to this area of our backyard to build a two-story 8'x8' play structure for our kids. Wow. Was that back breaking - and we did if over a series of weeks. I've also hauled firewood down from up there. It's a real pain. So, I'm inclined to keep the hauling to a minimum, if possible -- or at least make it as manageable as possible.

Thanks for your post.

Regards -

How big/powerful a chainsaw?

Dave (Arlington, VA)

>Hi John -

Seems like there is a consensus that I will want to have major sections of this tree sawn - i.e. rather than riven into quarters or eights or some such.

One of the attractive features of riving was that it sounded like it might be a one person job - only needing folks to help out if I need to move some of the riven pieces (and then they'd be considerably lighter).

Any thoughts, John, on how powerful a chainsaw would need to be to do this job? I know I'd need a bigger bar, and from Philip's post that I'd probably need a different blade. But I chainsaw is just a little "Husky" that I mostly use from triming up stuff around the yard. Could I get away with this?

Thanks for your post.

Regards -

Dave

Size of the pieces... I had wondered

Dave (Arlington, VA)

>Thanks, Roger.

I had wondered about how big my "left over" pieces might be if I quartered it - but hadn't really focussed on it. That's a very helpful observation. I'm going to have to figure that into my plans, and get a better idea of what I'll actually end up with.

Much obliged.

Regards -

Dave

Got the two wedges!

Dave (Arlington, VA)

>Hi Jeff -

I've got the wedges (just need to come up with some gluts) - and I'll be avoiding the center of the log for sure!

Thanks for your post and encouragement.

Regards -

Dave

Re: Any experience riving BIG wood

Nemo Tools

>Hi,

I have some suggestions on this.

First, read this book: Green Woodworking by Drew Langsner. Great book on taking a project from the tree to the finished article, all using traditional methods. Lots of stuff on how to riv a tree. Try your local public library. That's where I found it.

Second, some trees just aren't worth the effort because of where they are located.

Thirdly, if there is any way to saw it up into usable lengths and drag it up to a place where it can be worked on easily, that's the way to go.

I've had some misadventures trying to rescue free wood. I buy from Paxtons now.

Also, as an engineer who worked briefly in the forest products industry, I have learned one fundamental principal of timber harvesting. Logs are heavy. The corolary to this is that when logs fall on you, it hurts. It's worth keeping in mind.

Hope this helps. And tell us how it works out for you.

Nemo

Oh, Once or Twice

Bob Smalser, Seabeck, WA

>Around here kids do it every day. Cedar butts not suitable for lumber are split into fence rails.

Split the log in half first, starting a 180 crack in one end and adding wedges down the crack for the length of the log.

Getcha 4 steel wedges and a couple plastic fallers wedges from baileys-online.com to free up wedges that get stuck.