Bedrock 4.5C, collector v. user, new v. old

Sound rationale

David Miller from Iowa

>The LN planes, IMHO, are better users than the old Bedrocks. And you still can leverage the collector side as well. If recent auctions are an indication, an LN 50 years from now could well be worth much more than a Bedrock.

Re: Sound rationale

dave caudill

>In my mind you have both a user and a collector. I can't imagine anything you would do to it that someone in the last hundred years or so didn't already do to it to make it any less desireable. Unless of course you mark all of your tools with bright flourescent paint. I have a 604 1/2 and it is a great user and I can't imagine what more I would get out of a Lie-Nielsen that I'm not getting out of it. And you alrerady have it in hand and with a little tuning and a new blade its good to go and you have a piece of history in your hands that is unique in some sense than a LN 4.5 would be. Nothing wrong with the LN but for all of the trouble of selling it just to replace it seems like you could put your time to use doing something you would like a lot better. And you can always purchase a LN 4.5 but 604 1.2 Stanleys are not getting any more common. Hang on to it use it and see if it fits your needs. If not then sell it. I think once tuned and in use you'll forget you ever asked this question.

Dave

Re: Effect of tuning on collector value

Dave Mount

>>>I can't imagine anything you would do to it that someone in the last hundred years or so didn't already do to it to make it any less desireable.

Maybe because I'm not a collector I don't understand what creates value. I thought having appropriate "patina" was part of the value (e.g., all the emphasis on not over cleaning planes). I was operating under the presumption that if I did some lapping or filing as part of tuning that the evidence of *recent* tuning would devalue the plane to collectors in a way that similar things done by the original owner wouldn't. Am I wrong?

Ignorance isn't always bliss. . .

Dave

You must pick

ron in Kokomo

>For me I'd much rather have Bedrock with the new iron, and let my heirs worry about the wisdom of my decision. That is a personal opinion and not a rational decision based on cost accounting. But for the overwhelming majority of us.....this ain't about money.

my .02

Ron who is missing his shop

T&G speed

Jim Reed @Tallahassee

>Let's see, the flooring would be hardwood and you would need to first joint the edge. Then add T&G. I say you will be one tired pup when finished.

Re: Effect of tuning on collector value

Jack Guzman from Maine

>Dave,don't strip the knob and tote and refinish.Don't sandblast the base and spraypaint.Don't clean the whole plane with a wire wheel or a sanding disc.

Lapping the sole,filing frog mating surfaces and cleaning to the point of getting all dirt and grime off the tool are maintenance and improvements.If you do it right.Any improvements you do to the plane should make it worth more in the long run.You'll get to enjoy it and someday your heirs should get big bucks for it.

I sure wish I could find a 604 1/2.---Jack

Re: Bedrock 4.5C, collector v. user, new v. old

Rick w.

>I'm pretty much like you are when it comes to buying old tools. Like you, I buy most of my tools to use.I started buying old tools to use because they were better quality and cheaper than new ones.Nowadays, however,the gap has narrowed in both quality and price.So now, I buy which whichever is cheaper and better.For example,if I needed a no. 9, I would definately buy the LN rather than an original Stanley.

Regarding your 604-1/2, if I were in the same position , I would sell it and buy the LN with the 50 degree frog. I am personally uncomfortable using an original tool that is worth so much. If I dropped it,I couldn't replace it, whereas I could replace the LN.

Rick W.

Re: Bedrock 4.5C, collector v. user, new v. old

John Weber - GO BUCKS!

>I agree with Rick, for about the same money a new LN 4.5 with a York pitch is a much better plane. Better blade, chip breaker, more weight, and will hold value just as well. I started buying old Stanleys, but as is and well tuned they cannot compete with today�s modern high quality planes. A Veritas, Clifton, or LN all come with quality blades and chip breakers, are well designed and built, and can be quickly tuned to perform at a very high level. Even if you add a new aftermarket blade the plane might still need a fair bit of work to produce excellent results. I might be a bit bias, as I just ordered a 4-1/2 York Pitch with Rosewood handles today - the bad thing is it's on back order for 2 weeks. I say for a user - sell and get a new LN, if you collect then what ever is your pleasure.

John

Re: Don't forget rip to width

Dave Mount

>Jim--

I assume you are joining in the sarcasm -- SWMBO certainly was doing just that.

Best,

Dave

Re: Bedrock 4.5C, collector v. user, new v. old

Victor Parisian

>-" the bad thing is it's on back order for 2 weeks" I believe this is about the same amount of time a lot of e-bay sellers take to make it over to the P.O. from personal experience

I vote for use it and enjoy it.

my .02 worth

Victor - who is home early with a freshly spayed cat that is feeling kinda puny and still waiting for my e-bay package.

The User Collector

Todd Hughes

>I think often people tend to think of tool owners as just the "User"..the fellow that would paint his millers patent plane bright orange so he won't misplace it and don't care because "dang gumit these things were ment to be used" and the "collector" who puts that rusty no. 4 he just out bid you on in a display cabinet only to be fondled at night while alone.

In the real world I think most tool owners are more in the middle. The reason that Bed Rocks sell for more is because they are good planes to use and people like to collect them to use , [or hope to use] They might not like to think of themselves as collectors but most are I think.Offer them a bedrock with 95% jappaning for the same price as one with 50% and any bets on what one they take? Why? Both will work the same but just like the pure collector they are worried about what the plane looks like as well as how it works.

I sell lots of tools and I used to be amazed sometimes when something sells high and the buyer tells me he is going to use it.Once sold a hammer for over $250 and guy couldn't wait to get it to put it to work, same with everlast chisels and Bed Rocks ....Todd

Mine gets hot

Jim Reed @Tallahassee

>U R correct. I might note, however, that my #48 plane heats up when I get into the *groove*. I have even had to stop and let it cool off.

Re: Bedrock 4.5C, collector v. user, new v. old

Don Thompson - Cutler Ridge, Florida

>What type number is the plane, and in what condition is it?

Re: Bedrock 4.5C, collector v. user, new v. old

Dave Mount

>Hey Don--

I typed it once but can't remember the decision offhand. It's a flat top with a keyhole lever cap, which I believe puts it in the 5-8 range. Overall the condition is excellent -- not mint excellent, but "used not abused" excellent. No rust at all, but all the metal has the usual greyish patina. Just thinking about it this minute, I don't remember if I looked at the blade logo to see if it is otherwise type correct or a replacement. The two apologies are a broken tote (halfway down, both pieces still there, unrepaired at this point) and a broken adjuster yolk. Scott Burr was kind enough to send me a replacement yolk, but I haven't installed it yet -- I'm working up the courage to drive the retaining pin out, while convinced I'll break the frog doing it.

So how does that fit into your calculus? If you really want/need to know the specific type, I can type it this evening and report back.

Best,

Dave

Great thoughts, no decision

Dave Mount

>I appreciate all the combined wisdom -- just wish it led me more directly to a decision! I'm very much caught in the same push-pull reflected in all your comments. It is fun to use a vintage tool. But I'm very susceptible to the non-replacable factor if a damage it, relative to a new plane that can be replaced (albeit at great expense). And Todd, I know exactly the "I'm a user, but I want that minty plane" you're talking about. Fortunately for me, my innate cheapness and the auction process usually keep the really nice condition planes out of my hands. Although (warning, drive-by gloat), I scored an absolutely gorgeous zero rust completely intact Keen Kutter K5 off e**y a while back in one of those freak auctions where it seems like no one is paying attention. And I enjoy using it very much, thank you.

An advantage to the user mentality (at least my user mentality) is that a nicely reworked plane (i.e., carefully derusted, refinished, and re-japanned) gives me about 90% of the "minty plane" rush, even though most "collectors" would view it as ruined. I recognize their perspective, but IMHO if it looks nice, it looks nice, the originality of it isn't that big a deal to me. To each his own, there is no right or wrong.

Thanks for the input. Guess I'll stew about it a little longer.

Best,

Dave, who watched a similar 604.5C with a blush of rust go on e**y last night for $260 (lower than most)

Re: Great thoughts, no decision

Todd Hughes

>Is funny but I never had any desire to have any of my user tools to be "nice". Matter of fact when I used tools everyday most of them were ones that had damage or were in rough condition but not so it would really afect my use of them. The really nice tools got sold or put in my collection and I never had a desire to use them. My user tools I really did just think of as a means to an end though I was rather attached to some.When I wore out a hammer I always buried it next to my anvil and I do love my broken Craftsman block plane and little Swann drawknife. Having nice looking tools to use just was never important to me but I can sort of understand it I guess. I did paint pin stripes on my Anvil ! .....Todd , who thinks he has a 605 1/2C out in the shop somewhere

Look in the long scrap bucket.

Bob Hackett

>

Re: Great thoughts, no decision

Mike L

>Can't say I understand your logic on this one Todd. If you enjoy having tools in your collection that are nice to look at while you're not using them, why not have tools in your kit that are nice to look at when you _are_ using them? Then again, for someone who has successfully worn out a hammer (a fellow who avoids work nonetheless), I guess I can see some sense in your approach. :-)

Cheers,

Mike

Re: Great thoughts, no decision

ron in Kokomo

>It would be different if you were talking about a Chelor plane.

There are several hundred of the bedrocks like your around, so it is not like you are risking our cultural heritage.

Re: Bedrock 4.5C, collector v. user, new v. old

John Weber - GO BUCKS!

>Victor,

It's coming from FJT, so no ebay worries with this one.

John

Re: Great thoughts, no decision

Todd Hughes

>Guess it is a hard thing to explain. But when i was making stuff I was concerned with getting it done and more about what I was making then the tool I was using to make it. Of course I would never use a plastic handle or a new tool but a beat or repaired tool I always figured good enough for me...and most times was! I always got a certain perverse enjoyment out of making something nice out of junk or scrap using "junk" to make it as well. I do sort of dream about having a fancy shop someday with all nice tools to use displayed etc. but probaly that ain't me ...Todd

Re: Bedrock 4.5C, collector v. user, new v. old

dave caudill

>What is it you are going to do to a handplane that would destroy it? I have my share of drops and bangs and bumps but it is hard for me to comprehend what you might do that this plane hasn't already been through in the past 100 years. They're not eggs they are well made hardworking tools.

Also I beg to differ on the fact that the new planes are so much better. I think its a testament to the fact that these old planes are so good that people like Tom Lie-Nielsen has chosen to copy them. If they were so inferior he would not have dome so. I know they weigh a little more and there may be a couple others features that are "Handy" but I will take my 604 1/2 any time.

One thing I will give you is that quality control was probably not as good and there are some old ones htat need a lot of work and have their own "personality" unlike the new ones. I'd be happy to go head to head with a new 4 1/2. I may lose but the difference would be so slight that it wouldn't be worth arguing over. I think much of it is in the tuning and sharpening and even the new superior planes if not properly tuned are no better than a boat anchor.

My 2 cents plus a couple.

Dave

Re: Bedrock 4.5C, collector v. user, new v. old

Don Thompson - Cutler Ridge, Florida

>I have a few Stanley Bedrock planes, and a few Lie-Nielsen planes. I think that, if I totally disassembled the equivalent planes, ever single part on the LN would be of better quality than the equivalent Stanley, with the possible exception of the wood for the knob and tote. Real South American rosewood is scarce these days.