Est. 1998 — 27 years of woodworking knowledge
Re: "Religous Nonsense" ?
Dean Lapinel
>Pam,
I actually remember you from years ago. It is sad that you aren't even aware that you so commonly express hostility or make condescending comments.
I prefer not to converse with you but please....have the last word.
Re: "Religous Nonsense" ?
Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX
>Well, Dean, I don't really care about having the last word, but I do like to respond until we've come to some resolution.
Were you on rec.woodworking or BP or both? If rec.woodworking, I understand your reluctance to talk to me, since the group as a whole hounded every woman who dared show her face and actually say something, thus eliciting some immoderate responses. I tried sticking it out, hoping that other women would join in and the general tone would moderate. It never happened, so after a year or so I gave up. If that's your frame of reference, I reject your opinion out of hand.
When you asked in another thread if I had intended to insult you, I simply replied no, even explained why not. What's wrong with that? Were you still insulted? Thought I lied?
Now, if you just plain don't like me for whatever reason, I suppose that's OK, too, not much I can do about it since I'm not begging for your approval; but there's no reason to go hunting for occasions to express that dislike, looking for reinforcement of your preconceived opinion. I am not, don't want to be, never have been, and never will be a sweet young thing.
Pam
Re: "Religous (sic) Nonsense" ?
Mike L
>"I am not, don't want to be, never have been, and never will be a sweet young thing."
Is this in any way relevant to woodworking?
Cheers,
Mike
Re: "Religous (sic) Nonsense" ?
Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX
>Maybe not, but it's sure relevant to how we talk about woodworking.
Pam
Sharpness (long and dull)
Wiley Horne--Glendora CA
>Greg,
You pose a great question--what are the attributes of a sharp edge? Sharp enough for me is when the blade slides at a right angle easily through an edge of newsprint. But doesn't each of us develop his/her own test of working sharpness? Hair cutting, fingernail catching, end grain paring, newsprint cutting, various light/reflectance tests. Then it gets more fine grained: Does it pop the hair, or only knock it off? Will it split the hair in mid-air 1/4" above the arm? etc etc.
There are deeper inquiries into 'what is sharp?'. Leonard Lee's analysis of shaving formation, and electron microscope images of blade edges and abrasives; the more recent studies of edge dynamics, still ongoing, by Brent Beach. And the tests of initial sharpness, and dulling rates of various steels, by Steve Elliott--these may lead us to the right attributes.
I would like to rephrase your question a bit--what are the attributes of a durable and sharp edge? 'Durable' because some initially sharp edges dull quickly, while others last.
I don't the answer to the question. But for the sake of discussion, would suggest a couple of hypotheses concerning attributes which should be present, before we get to the hair popping, newsprint, end grain, etc, tests:
1. Hypothesis 1: Clearance Angle (plane blades). Lots of clearance angle is good. Brent Beach on his site analyzes dullness, and he argues or hypothesizes that in many cases what we perceive as dullness is actually loss of clearance angle--the edge may still be working sharp! Example: Suppose a bevel-down plane is bedded at 45 degrees. And suppose the blade is sharpened at, say 35-40 degrees--or is microbeveled or otherwise rounded into that ballpark. That 5-10 degrees of clearance could be rapidly used up by formation of what Brent calls the 'wear bevel'. The plane can be bumping along on its hiney, with a fairly sharp edge. So 'durably sharp' would include plenty of clearance angle. This proposition could be tested by preparing the same blade at different bevel angles, and comparing feet planed at each angle. Graph feet planed versus clearance angle. This could be a quite complex curve, with 'feet planed' increasing with clearance angle to some threshhold, then levelling out, then actually declining as the steel begins to break down at some acute bevel angle.
2. Hypothesis 2: Compactness. The edge should resist being abraded, shredded, taken apart--by wood. A blade could test sharp, but be toothy, or feathered out and wispy, so that it would abrade and degrade quickly in action. I'm not dead certain this is correct--one could imagine that a toothy edge on an extremely abrasive-resistant steel might attack the wood successfully rather than being abraded itself. And of course each application is different, e.g., smooth planing versus mortise chopping. But let's talk planing now, since that's where the testing is happening. It seems to me that compactness, with every carbide and grain of steel providing lateral support for the one next to it, is best. But who knows? Testing this hypothesis, or it's opposite, would require photomicroscope images of edges going through their full cycle from initial sharpness to breakdown. And then some sort of metric for toothiness or compactness.
The testing programs which are on-going right now by Brent and Steve, will be able to settle these or similar questions.
Wiley
Re: Hock or Veritas A2? *LINK*
Brent
>Hi
You are asking just slightly the wrong question here. I have done lots of plane iron testing - see below - and the question you should be asking is Hock A2 or LeeValley A2.
The answer, from my testing, is Hock A2.
Lee Valley does not sell this blade. Perhaps no Canadian firm does. If you put "hock a2 plane iron" into Google, the first item is the test, the second the place I bought my blade.
Plane iron tests
Like I said...
Bob Hackett
>Sen-sa-teeeev!
MB
Re: "Religous (sic) Nonsense" ?
Todd Stock
>The spelling WAS correct in my original post...
Is that bad, Bob?
Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX
>
Yes, sorry to have replicated the misspelling.
Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX
>
Re: Sharpness (long and dull)
Joel
>Hypothisis 1:
I fully agree - I find myself these days sharpening at lower and lower angles. Yip there is a trade-off in blade longevity, and at lower angles the fancy alloys don't seem to get as sharp or last that long- they kind of crumble (not inlcuding cvm3 or whatever that stuffis called - which seems to work well at very long angles), but the actual initial performace I get is better and why I have a soft spot for Carbon steel.
Hypothosis 2.
I'm not sure if I agree - "The edge should resist being abraded, shredded, taken apart--by wood" I don't know if I care what happens to the blade I am more interested in what happens to the wood. I do understand where you are coming from - and I would agree - that the longevity of a cutting edge is not just beased on the alloy it starts at what we consider a sharp edge and how that edge fails microscopically. This is the heart of the very interesting work by Brent and Steve. THey are mosting interested in testing alloy differences but seeing how things fail is very very interesting. What they don't address is how different sharpening techniques change the starting point and the easiest way of getting to a good starting point. Steve touches on some of the sharpening process but really on how to address exotic alloys - which is very useful but not applicable when you are only considering speed of sharpening on more mundane steel.
I can tell you that different industries outside woodworking prefer the edge produced by different materials and methods. I can also say that different sharpening materials can produce different qualities of edge, and different materials seem to work better for different steels.
THe other question is of course at what point does extra sharpness not matter - that is: it works lets move on.
I think for everyone the first time you expericne using a truly sharp tool it is an eye widener. and maybe the best test for sharp is simply - does the tool do the job.
Just for jollies try something - after finishing up on your finest waterstone, test the edge, then strop it using a PLAIN UNTREATED strop (no honing compound). after vout 20 or 30 strokes on each side the edge will take on a warmer, smoother feel. Then test it out.
Re: Is that bad, Bob?
Bob Hackett
>Not if you`re paying attention.
MB
Re: "Religous Nonsense" ?
Alan Hamilton
>Dean,
As you must have gathered by now, Pam doesn't need anyone to defend her, she's quite capable. She may not even want a champion. Nevertheless...
Telling someone he is an idiot is an insult; telling someone his idea is idiotic is not. There are more and less blunt ways of telling someone his idea is idiotic. Unfortunately, in English anyway, it seems that the "nicer" ways of saying such things are less explicit and more equivocal; the more pleasant you try to be, the more you have to mince words, and the more feeble are the emasculated ideas they convey.
Pam expresses herself exactly, without being mealymouthed about it. You never wonder what she really meant. Pam speaks her mind without worrying about what Emily Post would think. That is refreshing; that is admirable--especially as so many around here seem to see her as an invader of territory that's rightfully theirs, where the implements are oiled with testosterone alone. Without Pam, and others like her, this site wouldn't be very lively; like a few other sites it might become nothing more than a mutual admiration club--blaaah.
I will add, Dean, that you went after Pam's personality, not what she had to say. An ancient proverb states an often heard principle: "Examine what is said, not him [sorry Pam] who speaks."
So damn the torpedoes...go get 'em Pam.
Alan
Re: "Religous Nonsense" ?
Mike L
>I disagree. In the message Dean responded to, Pam wrote "a more rational person....." I'm not sure of any interpretation for this other than that she believes Dean is not rational. The statement is, imo, both hostile and condescending so Dean's response was, in fact, about what she had to say. Just m.o.
Cheers,
Mike
If'in all you say it true...
Scott Burr in Ben Lomond,CA
>Why open your mouth? I for one know she shouldn't be held in such high regard...
Can we kill this grande toro poo poo?
Outting myself
Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX
>OK, Scott, here you go folks. Early last year I offered to sell Scott some quirk router blades at my cost, which, due to exchange rates, was substantially cheaper than what they would have cost him from one of the UK dealers, particularly when he added shipping.
About two seconds later, my mother got very ill, and I had to rush off to Richmond. That plus the recognition that my career in software was over put me into a great depression that I'm still not sure I've put behind me.
Nevertheless, I did not send him his blades for about 3 months, maybe longer (I honestly don't remember), which put him in a spot with a client. This was particularly shabby treatment, I'm not proud of it. So I apologize again and in public.
Pam