WoodCentral Forums

Est. 1998 — 27 years of woodworking knowledge

More bench design questions:

Posts

More bench design questions:

#1

More bench design questions:

David Hammond, in Powder Springs GA

>Ok, I'm working on a drawing of my bench, and I had a couple of questions, and updates:

I think I'm going with Yellow Pine at this point, but we'll see what the lumber looks like when it comes time to spend the cash. I'd liek to have a bench hook and planing stop on the front left of my bench, and a twin screw vise as Adam has mentioned, centered over the right leg.

I'm planning on the top being 12' by 30", on a set of legs and stretchers that will be 8' by 30" - first question: how far can I hang my top off, on the right end of the bench? I'd like to hang it over one foot on the left, and three feet on the right; is this too much?

Also, I'm planning for the legs and front stretcher to be flush with the bench top - but what about a sliding board jack, I know I need one - what's a good way to make such a thing, in this situation?

And Adam, could you please explain/describe something you've mentioned before - a sticking board along the back of the bench? I have no clue what this is, or is for; and for what it's worth, my bench is going in the center of my shop, so it's not against a wall.

Thanks guys,

This bench stuff takes some serious planning!

David

Re: More bench design questions:

#2

Re: More bench design questions:

mike recchione

>More questions than answers, I'm afraid.

First, how thick are you planning to make the top? Three feet is a lot of overhang, but might be OK if you're talking about a really thick benchtop. I wonder whether it will be prone to sag? Also, it wouldn't be a great place to do much banging - unless the top is mongo thick, it will bounce. But it sounds like you've got plenty of other bench surface to do your banging on.

Second, why a bench hook (I assume you mean the Roubo-style hook and holdfast combo, not a removable sawing hook) plus a twin screw vise? The twin screw vise as a face vise on the left side of the bench is probably all you'd need. I personally wouldn't want a face vise towards tail or middle of the bench if I planned to do a lot of edge planing towards the left front - I think I'd be bumping into it (particularly backing into it) all the time in the enthusiasm of the moment. But your bench is so long that it might not be a problem - it sounds like you'll have about 8 feet between the hook and the beginning of the twin screw vise. The advantage of the hook/holdfast combo is supposed to be speed for a certain type of work, according to Landis. But I never found his explanation all that convincing - the twin screw vise could easily do the whole job, with a lot less messing around.

I'm curious about both the width of the bench and the notion of permanently mounting a sticking board on the back face. One of the advantages of having a bench away from a wall is that you can get to all sides of the work without moving it. This, and the fact that most of the boards you'll work on will be less than one foot wide is one of the reasons most neander cabinetmakers benches are no wider than 24", many less than that. Making the bench so wide, IMHO, makes it very difficult to do things like hand-thicknessing most of the boards you'll work with without having to constantly reposition them. But maybe you don't plan to do stock prep by hand, or you have some other reason to make the top so wide - I'm not criticising, just raising the question.

And again, speaking for my own work, running moldings is something I do less frequently than most other operations, which is why I use a removable sticking board held onto the front face of my bench between dogs when I need it. However, if you plan to run a lot of moldings, it may pay to dedicate the back face of the bench to that. In general, my own approach has been to use removable bench aids for operations where they either make sense or are performed infrequently. But YMMV.

For the sliding board jack, the arrangent where the legs and stretchers are flush with the top will work just fine. For really long boards, your twin screw vise becomes your board jack (if you stick to your original plan), so you only need it to slide in the area between the front legs.

Re: More bench design questions:

#3

Re: More bench design questions:

David Hammond, in Powder Springs GA

>First: The top is going to be 5" thick - yellow pine 1 by 6's, so it's massive, but I'm not sure if it wouldn't sag - I'm thinking I'll drop this back to 30", and 18" on the left.

The hook I'm planning on is like the Roubo - it seems like the best tool for the job here: quick and easy edge planing, with holdfasts in the flush leg; I don't need a fancy twin screw just to stop the end of a board. And you're right, I'll have 8' before I hit the twin screw on the right, and besides that, the vice is going to be very simple, no garters, and can be removed for long edge planing in a matter of seconds.

I'm as curious as you are about the sticking board - I don't really know what one is :o) I'm just asking about it, becuase it was mentioned, and I don't know what one uses such a thing for. :o) But I agree, I want the stuff that I use on my bench permanent, the assecories removable.

I realize this bench is a good bit wider than most, but this is for several reasons - it's in the middle of the shop for one thing, so I can get to all sides, so it also serves as a assemble table, and an outfeed table to the table saw. But you raised a good point, and I'm curious - with a thin bench, do you suface wide boards from both sides of the bench top? I had never thought of this...

Moldings will definitely be a less frequent operation, but like I said above, I was mostly just asking what a sticking board is even for - If you can't tell, I kow very little about what I'm planning!

Thanks.

David

Re: More bench design questions:

#4

Re: More bench design questions: *LINK*

mike recchione

>A sticking board is a long, stepped board with a stop at one end. It's used for running moldings. The thin, long work is supported by the step, and you work into the stop. The attached link is from Stephen Sheppard's excellent site. Scroll down to "Hand Planing Appliances". This site, by the way, is one of the best educations in traditional woodworking that you can get for free. (Thanks, Stephen!)

As far as hand stock prep is concerned, yes, it's most convenient to work from both sides of the bench. For example, when you're using a scrub plane to hand thickness a board, you typically clamp it in your tail vise (or whatever), and work it at 45 degrees from one side, then the other. That's hard to do if your bench is wide, but not impossible. After all, a lot of folks have benches against a wall. So if you've got other good reasons to want the bench wide, go for it.

Enjoy, and good luck.


sticking board

Re: More bench design questions:

#5

Board Jack How-To & Pictures *LINK*

Garrett in Victoria

>The link will take you to my bench-building story in the WC Articles and Reviews Dept. It includes a lot of info that might help you including a very easy-to-make removable sliding bench jack.

Cheers, Garrett


Workbench

Re: More bench design questions:

#6

Re: Board Jack How-To & Pictures

David Hammond, in Powder Springs GA

>Thanks Garret, that does help. I may add an Emmert clone down the road on another corner of my bench; I like that vise, and may use one for chairmaking parts and such one day. The sliding board jack detail, with the 15 degree French cleat helps.

Thanks!

David

Re: More bench design questions:

#7

Re: More bench design questions: *LINK*

Angus Barclay, in New Zealand

>30 in wide and 5in thick pine with a 36in overhang would take a load of approx 90lb before you could even measure 1/100th inch deflection.

Check out the "sagulator" for full info.

NB: the sagulator assumes a shelf fixed at both ends. For a rough guide to a cantilevered load supported at just one end (such as your proposed bench ovehang), I just tripled the length - 36in becomes 108in for the sagulator calculation. Engineers here may have a better guide to follow.

regards

Angus Barclay


The sagulator

Re: More bench design questions:

#8

Re: More bench design questions:

Adam Cherubini

>I'm planning on the top being 12' by 30", on a set of legs and stretchers that will be 8' by 30" - first question: how far can I hang my top off, on the right end of the bench? I'd like to hang it over one foot on the left, and three feet on the right; is this too much?

I think so. You want those legs out at the ends. Yeah the bench will sag a little. You can plane some of that out. But sag really isn't the problem, flex, may be though. I wouldn't sweat it. I could try to put some numbers to it if you are really curious.

I'd put the crochet as far to the left as is structurally sensible. The left leg should be positioned so that a 3" thick board can be placed into the crochet and still hang over a peg in the left hand leg. Nothing is arbritrary, so I don't recommend guessing.

On the right hand side you must decide if you are comfortable placing your bench hook in your twin screw or not. If so, the twin screw can come close to the right end. The right leg should be in the middle of that vise. If not, move the right leg and TS vise one foot left.

Also, I'm planning for the legs and front stretcher to be flush with the bench top - but what about a sliding board jack, I know I need one - what's a good way to make such a thing, in this situation?

I didn't read garretts webpage (but I will). I think its smartest to make a groove under the top and nail a batten on to the front stretcher. The groove/ batten size should be such that the jack can be removed (deep groove). A groove at the bottom fills up with stuff and then the jack won't move.

And Adam, could you please explain/describe something you've mentioned before - a sticking board along the back of the bench? I have no clue what this is, or is for; and for what it's worth, my bench is going in the center of my shop, so it's not against a wall.

My friend and fellow New Jersean Mike Recchione, had a good definition. I prefer not to have a separate appliance but rather just attach a fence directly to the bench (either behind holdfasts or whatever. This fence, if thin enough, is useful for exactly the operation Mike described and is one of the reasons tail vises are not great. We often plane 45 degrees and a tail vise is then only holding the board through the friction at the dogs. The way to avoid complexity is to provide direct load paths. If you want to stop your board from sliding sideways, put a hard stop behind your effort.

Mike mentioned placing the twin screw on the left. First, the crochet is really sweet. It really works great. Plus, with a bench this long, you can have two things going at one which is nice.

Second, you really want the twin screws jaw flush or very nearly flush with the bench top. Ditto for the screw heads. That will let you work narrow stock. But this becomes problematic when you are using jointing planes with fences or molding planes. These tools sometimes overhang the bench top and would hit the vise jaw. (since teh planing stop is far left. You could move the stop right, but then you'd loose effective bench length. For what? The crochet can be 1" or more under flush, so planes with fences can run right over. Having the crochet undr flush means you can't edge joint narrow stock, but stock that narrow is too narrow for that set up. That needs to be donee on top of the bench.

I guess I think there are reasons for all this stuff. I'm not convinced I know them all or this way is best. But I say, stay in the box until you figure it all out and can outsmart it. Otherwise, you are working blind, guessing, assuming stuff is arbitrary when its not.

Anyway, that's my two cents. You can sorta see why I think a really good workbench book would be really interesting. There's a lot to this subject.

Adam

Re: More bench design questions:

#9

Re: More bench design questions:

David Hammond, in Powder Springs GA

>Cool link Angus; I appreciate it!

David

Re: More bench design questions:

#10

Re: More bench design questions:

David Hammond, in Powder Springs GA

>Thank you again Adam, you've given me yet more to chew on - yeah, a real book on benches would be great! Landis's book is great eye candy, and has helped me figure out some of the basics, but there so much more to this! And I'm just hypothetically trying to work through operations in my head, which I've never even watched someone do with hand tools, much less done myself. So, I have much to mull over. I am slowly aquiring tools though, so I hope I'm gaining ground on this learning curve.

I've got more questions, so just holler when you've had enough! The crochet, can it be too far left of the left leg? I'm considering going back to centering the 8' base under my 12' top - so, I'll have a 2' overhang on either end. I think this will avoid some of the sag and/or deflection I might get at 3' feet. So, this puts a 10" long crochet about 16" from the center of the left leg - good, bad, otherwise?

Should I shoot for the twin screw vise to be on the very end of the right end of the bench? Or far enough away that it's totally out of the way for crosscutting (what I was trying to do with the 3' overhange at right). I can't really think of any problems with putting a bench hook in the vise. Or, would the vise be in the way, say 9" from the right end of the bench? I guess what I'm asking is this - should I shoot for either extreme (the vise all the way at the right end, or 18"-20" out of the way), or is something in between, like 9" from vise edge, to the right edge of the bench, ok? - which is approx. what I would get with the 2' overhang.

Garrett's page was nice - I like his sliding board jack, and think I can incorperate the 15 degree cleat into my bench - basically make an L-shaped cleat to be under the top, and a square cleat on the bottom stretcher.

I appreaciate all of the help here guys; I've got much to learn, to say the least.

Humbly,

David

Re: More bench design questions:

#11

Re: crochet

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>The crochet can be 1" or more under flush, so planes with fences can run right over. Having the crochet undr flush means you can't edge joint narrow stock, but stock that narrow is too narrow for that set up. That needs to be donee on top of the bench.

Assuming I understand all this correctly, I don't think so, Adam. First, the only good way to recess the crochet is to put it under the bench top, where it may interfere with the flush leg. But then it's too far from the the top of the edge being jointed, may not support the board properly. I know it's just a fancy stop, but it does seem to be an important board holder as well as stop, even if in conjunction with the pegged leg.

Pam

Re: More bench design questions:

#12

Re: crochet

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>I'm just saying the crochet needn't and shouldn't be flush with the bench top. So a 3" thick bench may have a 2" thick crochet, 1" under flush. On a thicker bench, you might want to drop the crochet a bit more.

If the crochet were 1" under flush, you probably wouldn't be able to edge joint stock under 2" wide. I don't think that a problem since stock that narrow deflects too much to be supported with two stops.

All of this is just to suggest that its helpful to consider the use of a plow, fillester or molding plane. My face vise is on the left and it must be removed when I use such tools. If my stock is short I sometimes move the planing stop back (a wooden dog in my case), but that has obvious pitfalls.

Adam

Re: More bench design questions:

#13

That's the problem!

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>And I'm ...trying to work through operations in my head, which I've never even watched someone do with hand tools, much less done myself.

Yeah that's the problem. That's it. Ellis had this idea to add short video clips to WC. Wouldn't this be a great subject to include. Just imagine a folder entitled "edge jointing". In it could be half a dozen different woodworkers using their tools and equipment to perform the function, a japanese bench, Northern european, English, french etc.

Regardless, that is the problem we all face. My trip to Williamsburg was the first time in ten years I had ever seen someone do the jobs I do with the tools I use. That's not good.

Adam

Re: More bench design questions:

#14

Re: crochet

Dean J in MN

>

I'm just saying the crochet needn't and shouldn't be flush with the bench top. So a 3" thick bench may have a 2" thick crochet, 1" under flush. On a thicker bench, you might want to drop the crochet a bit more.

Yep -- I have a ~3 inch crochet, on a 4 inch top, dropped about an inch from the top... Enough that it clears all the fences of my planes.

-Dean

Re: More bench design questions:

#15

Re: More bench design questions:

Dean J in MN

>

Garrett's page was nice - I like his sliding board jack, and think I can incorperate the 15 degree cleat into my bench - basically make an L-shaped cleat to be under the top, and a square cleat on the bottom stretcher.

FWIW --

I ploughed a groove on the underside of my bench top and on the top of the bottom stretcher, this is what my board jack rides in. That way you have no need to make a cleat, or hang a board jack off of that cleat. In retrospect a groove on the bench bottom is fine, but you may want to cut the groove in the bottom of the board jack which runs on a spline on the bottom stretcher as it catches fewer shavings that way. I thought about that, and then did it the previous way because I did not want to try to plough a grove in end grain with a plough plane. :) It works fine, I don't get that many shavings in the grove.

-Dean

Re: More bench design questions:

#16

Hey Dean

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Can you post some pictures of your bench?

Adam

Re: More bench design questions:

#17

Re: Hey Dean

Dean J in MN

>

Can you post some pictures of your bench?


I will try to beg/borrow a digi cam and see what I can do...

-Dean

Re: More bench design questions:

#18

Overhang

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>David,

I just drew some pictures and I came up with 18" overhang on each end. If you send me an e-mail, I'll try to send you a drawing of exactly how I came up with that. No need to muddy the wc waters with this level of detail.

Adam

Re: More bench design questions:

#19

Re: crochet

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Aha, maybe I should take a reading for comprehension course, You meant "flush with the top," just as you said. I thought you meant "flush with the front edge," which made no sense at all.

And of course you're right. A top-flush crochet would interfere with a plane fence.

Pam

Re: More bench design questions:

#20

Re: That's the problem!

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>A WC video area would be cool; but honestly, there are plenty of videos already available from experts. I've found them most instructive.

Pam

Re: More bench design questions:

#21

Re: Hey Dean

David Hammond, in Powder Springs GA

>Pictures would be much appreciated Dean! Any efforts towards such would be most helpful.

David

Re: More bench design questions:

#22

Re: Overhang

David Hammond, in Powder Springs GA

>I'll ping you offline tonight Adam; thanks for the help!

David

Re: More bench design questions:

#23

Re: Board Jack How-To & Pictures *LINK*

Norman (Metcalfe, Ont.)

>Garrett,

I've incorporated your sliding board jack design with the 15 degree cleat into my makeshift bench, which incidentally, is still going strong

(2 yrs.) :)

Photo attached.

Thx,

Norman


Board Jack

👍 This page answered my questions

Your vote helps other woodworkers quickly find the answers and techniques that actually work in the shop.