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Hide Glue Question

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Hide Glue Question

#1

Hide Glue Question

bill tindall

>This is a theoretical question (I am not facing this problem) but I hope for an experienced answer.

One of the often discussed advantages of hide glue is that it is reversable, which enables easy repair. I have heard that heat and moisture are involved.?. Ok, suppose we have a table assembled years ago with hide glue. Further suppose that some of the leg to apron mortises are loose and others are not. In detail, what would be done to loosen the still tight joints to disassemble the table for reglueing?

What I am looking for are conditions of time, temperature and wetness that will soften the glue so that I may asses what such conditions will do to the wood and finish. More specifically, temperature and moisture will soften aliphatic glue too. Are the conditions for hide glue significantly more mild such that there would be less impact on the wood and finish?

Re: Hide Glue Question

#2

Re: Hide Glue Question

Dean J in MN

>

What I am looking for are conditions of time, temperature and wetness that will soften the glue so that I may asses what such conditions will do to the wood and finish. More specifically, temperature and moisture will soften aliphatic glue too. Are the conditions for hide glue significantly more mild such that there would be less impact on the wood and finish?


Sorry, I'll have to pass some of the details to those with more hide glue expertise than I, but I will put forth this:

True heat and mositure will soften aliphatic glue, however, you can not make a new joint with aliphatic without getting all of the old glue out of the joint. That is, old aliphatic glue is not "reactivated" by new aliphatic glue. This is not the case with hide glue, you can 'melt' the joint and add new glue which will in a sense reactivate the old glue in the joint....

The rest I leave to the real experts.

-Dean J

Re: Hide Glue Question

#3

My experience

Jim Reed @Tallahassee

>with hide glue comes from antique furniture repair. All of the hide glue I have ever seen is quite brittle and gives up when shocked. Just whack with a rubber mallet. If a good whacking does not do the trick, then that joint is good and does not need repair. Most old hide glue joints are easy and fail like a $10 car. I scraped off residue with pocket knife and used water for final cleanup. Good luck.

Re: Hide Glue Question

#4

Re: Hide Glue Question

L. Hanson

>It might interest you to take a look at how a luthier dissassembles a neck from the body (dovetailed joint) on a guitar glued with hide glue. See Frank Ford's Frets.com website article on his "Neck Reset Technique" which uses some methods that could apply in situations similar to the one you describe...

Leif

NorseWoodsmith.com

Re: Hide Glue Question

#5

Re: More info...

L. Hanson

>Just a couple more links with information:

Using hide glue article on frets.com site...

More info on hide glue...

Re: Hide Glue Question

#6

Good point

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>

Re: Hide Glue Question

#7

My experience

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Hi Bill,

I had to disassemble one of my Wm & Mary pieces many months ago. I had the thing finished but one of the legs was crooked and I just couldn't stand it any longer. The leg was round tenoned into a large glue block in the underside of the case. But because of the lower stretcher, removing one leg meant removing all 4. At the time of disassembly the piece was almost a year old.

I have an espresso machine with the capuccino pipe which I've heard some luthiers use to steam apart instruments. They attach a hose to the steam nozzle. I skipped it. I used hot water instead. Here's what I learned:

Several of my tenon joints were so tight dry that all the hide glue must have extruded out during initial assembly. A little scraping and hot water at the shoulder released the joints nicely. The water was probably no more than 150F. These legs may have taken 5 minutes to free. The water would soften the top layer of glue, I'd scrape it away and apply more hot water. The finish was milk paint oil and wax. The water didn't effect it.

The one loose joint would not release at all. The tenon was 3" long and there was no access to the glued surface. I tried boring holes through the glue block and letting the water soak into the joint. Maybe I didn't wait long enough. Maybe my holes never hit the tenon.

I've sucessfully released test specimens in my shop. I've also reversed things I had just glued up but was way past the open time. (like 30 minutes to 1 hour after gluing). I think the trick is having access to the glue surface. Without that I think you are hosed. If the joint is already loose (like an antique) you're home free. If it was a tight joint, it might be easier or the glue might be somewhere you didn't expect (only on the shoulder). Otherwise, I think you could be looking at 1500 to 3000 psi with no way to stop it.

Oh, that reminds me, Eugene Thordahl once told me alcohol would break the joint. I've never tried that. Speaking of Eugene, he also recommends the lower Molecular Weight glues for us (135). If you have a high MW, reversal is harder. If you added salt or urea or Franklin (which has a ton of Urea) it may be an easier job.

That's all I know. Good Luck with whatever you have in mind.

Adam

Re: Hide Glue Question

#8

Re: Hide Glue Question

Ron, Neosho, Wi.

>When I had stubborn glue joints that I knew were hide glue I would drill into the joint with a tiny number bit and using a hypodermic syringe (with the point ground off)would inject warm water and after a few moments "voila". After a day or two of drying the piece could be reglued. If you are careful the holes from the drill can be easily hidden and onward and upward.

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