Varnish VS Lacquer

Re: Varnish VS Lacquer

HC Sakman

>Varnish will resist alcohol, hot & cold better than lacquer. Just don't top it with wax! (Wax applied on top of varnish makes the varnish valnurable. It's effected easily with alcohol and heat, the solvent(s) in the wax get activated and starts eating the actual finish underneath. Any other surface, other than table tops are ok to top any finish with wax.

Chico...

Re: Varnish VS Lacquer

Alan Hamilton

>Gil,

I'm don't know that either is better. Folks use them both. That said, my preference is varnish. I've found lacquer too hard to get right--probably due to my inexperience with it. In my brief experience with lacquer I've found it too temperamental; and probably because I've used varnish for a long while, it isn't.

I've not heard you shouldn't use wax over varnish. I've been doing just that for more years than I like to remember, with no problems whatever. In fact, many more able and knowledgeable finishers than I have been using wax over varnish for at least a century or two, and there are no reports of trouble that I'm aware of. It's one of the more usual combinations used by finishers.

These days I use my own home-brew. I use turpentine as the solvent, and turpentine won't harm cured varnish. I've also used a number of commercial concoctions with no bad effects whatever. The solvents used in commercial waxes run from acetone to turpentine, and I've had no trouble with them, either. I don't know why any solvent, other than stripper, would hurt cured varnish--it's very durable stuff. Just be sure to use an interior, furniture grade varnish; use only gloss and rub it out to any degree of shine you want--but let it cure for at least several weeks before you rub it out--and then wax it if you want to. Avoid exterior and spar varnishes because they're too soft.

Alan

I said...

HC Sakman

>...don't wax varnish on table tops where they may be (likely) have to stand up to hot cups and/or alcohol. Any other finish on any other surface can be waxed. As a matter of fact you can wax any table top as well....though as long as you can avoid hot objects or alcohol wetted glass bottoms.

You can demonstrate this to yourself if you'd like.

Chico...

Wax prohibitions on varnish w/ heat...

Greg Sloop, Portland Oregon

>Would this include urethane varnishes or just alkaloyd ones? (I know, my spelling probably sucks...)

Thanks,

Greg

Re: I am currently using....

Dale Lenz

>my first qt. of rock-hard stuff by Master or some such thing. Maybe it's Master's rock-hard table top varnish. I probably won't use it again, I like McCloskey's Heirloom varnish myself. I reached outside my box to try something new, ouch!

I have a coffee table with water based varnish, and I waxed the fool out of it during the finish the finish phase. It has had coffee spilled, and once acetone, nail polish remover. Came though with flying color. I must admit the acetone scared me!

Re: Wax prohibitions on varnish w/ heat...

HC Sakman

>I am not an expert in the detailed chemistry of finishing products. There are many products on the market, sold with different names. When I am saying "varnish", I am referring to natural varnish (which is hard to find) and "polyurathane" finish, in other words: synthetic varnish. Anyway, if they are chemically the same then the answer to your question is yes, if they are not the same thing then one has to test it to find out.

Chico...

Coffee table?

Derek

>Cousin,

Do you mean to tell me that you actually drink that evil stuff??? You should be ashamed of yourself! That stuff causes heart attacks in lab animals! I'm ashamed of you! Think of the example you are to your progeny! It has caffene which is addictive!

I...I...I think I'll go to Starbucks....

But it's not for coffee! Yah. It's for ... it's for... tea ... Yah, tea that's it! It's for tea!

:>)

Re: I said...

Alan Hamilton

>Chico,

I must not have understood you correctly. What exactly are you saying: That the things you mentioned hurts just the wax, that the damage is in only the wax; or that they harm the varnish itself?

Alan

Re: I said...

HC Sakman

>Yes, activated (by heat or another solvent) solvents in the wax eats up the finish underneath the wax.

Chico...

Re: I said...

Alan Hamilton

>Chico,

Now that I have it right, I have to disagree.

Any solvent in the wax won't affect the varnish unless it's something like a stripper. As far as I know, varnish isn't affected by any common solvents such as acetone, toluene, mineral spirits, alcohol, etc. While they may do many other stupid things, I doubr any manufacturer of wax would use a solvent that would attack any commonly used finish. So any solvent in the wax wouldn't attack varnish cold or hot.

Besides that, if the varnish would be eaten away by solvent in the wax, it would be most affected when the wax was first put on. The concentration of solvent would be many times greater before the solvent evaporated. Heat alone won't change the chemical properties of the solvent, so if the solvent wouldn't affect the varnish when it was at room temperature, it wouldn't hurt it just because it was heated some.

But, just for argument's sake, suppose the solvent could harm varnish: I don't know why heat would "activate" any residual solvent that hadn't caused trouble up until then. First, again, all or very nearly all of the solvent would have evaporated. If there is any solvent left, while it's true that heat can speed up chemical reactions, there still has to be enough of the atuff to begin with. If there wasn't enough solvent to cause trouble when the wax was first applied--when the concentration of the solvent was many many times greater--there surely wouldn't be enough to cause trouble just because it was heated a few degrees.

Whenever I've seen white rings and other such damage in varnish, it was caused by things other than wax. If the piece has been waxed, it's often the case that all the white stuff is entirely in the wax. Removing the wax with some naphtha also removes the white.

When the white is in the varnish it is usually because the varnish has been heated enough to soften it just enough that moisture could penetrate. In that case, the trouble wasn't caused or increased by the wax; in fact, wax would have helped a very little as it was a shield--though a very weak shield--between the varnish and the source of the heat and moisture. (This kind of damage can usually be fixed with rottenstone or 4f pumice, paraffin oil, and elbow grease. Also, this kind of damage can be pretty much avoided by using a "bar top" varnish; they are formulated to be more resistant to heat, moisture, abrasion, and the like.)

But again, you don't need to take my word for it. Waxing varnished surfaces has been a ubiquitous finish for a very long time--including dining tables, bars, and table tops of all kinds. Some very excellent finishers I know wax table tops, bars and the like, as a matter of course. They like the look, and they like that it creates just that tiny bit more protection. (I suspect they like it also because it saves them a rubbing-out step or two.) No one among them has said anything about wax causing or adding to any kind of damage.

Alan

Well...

HC Sakman

>Hi Alan,

Perhaps full strength varnish (poly) is not effected but I did have seen an alcohol ring went through the wax and hand rubbed poly down to the wood! (Hand-rubbed poly is either Minwax or my mix with Varathane poly.) I love the look of it myself and it really eases the application since waxing can cover minor sheen inconsistencies.... though unfortunately my experience has been otherwise with wax over hand-rubbed poly. That's all I know for a fact. Also, I am not willing to tell my clients to wipe the rings with paint thinner and re-wax it in order to get rid of white rings. After what they are paying for my (their) furniture they don't want any white rings appearing on their furniture. Lastly, waxing tabletops require up-keep which is also not really a desired thing to do for most of my clients.

Chico....

Re: Well...

Alan Hamilton

>Chico,

Maybe we're both right. I know nothing about poly except that I hate it. I wouldn't use that &%$#ing stuff on a bet.

BTW, by "hand rubbed poly" do you mean a hand applied wipe on, or the like? or a poly you've rubbed out with abrasives?

Alan