Making a frame-and-panel door?

Re: Making a frame-and-panel door?

Jack Guzman from Maine

>I'm fairly new at this. All I do is dry fit my frame and measure the inside dimensions both ways and subtract for expansion allowance.Once the panel is glued and sized I mark the thickness I want on my edge with a marking guage.Then I decide how wide I want the profile and mark the face that width.Plane away the wood between marks, test fit and glue it up.---Jack

Re: Making a frame-and-panel door? *LINK*

William Claspy in Cleveland

>A couple of years ago Graham Blackburn did a two-part video for Fine Woodworking on buidling raised panel doors. He discusses both hand and power tool methods, but seems to focus mostly on hand tools. They are very well done, and are available now on one DVD, link below.

Cheers!

Bill


Blackburn video on frame and panel

Re: Making a frame-and-panel door?

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Hi Jeremy,

Your question seems to skate back and forth between design and technique. So if this post doesn�t answer your question, please forgive me.

For small kitchen cabinet sized doors, I size the stiles using golden section. The open space (where the panel will go) should be golden section (.618) of the total width of the door. Thus, each stile should be .191 x width. So for a 16� wide cabinet door, the stiles would be 3� wide each. For small doors, I make the rails the same width as the stiles. For taller but narrow doors, I like a taller lower rail. You could use the column orders for that. I use the ionic base (1/5).

To size the raise on the panel, I use (you guessed it) golden section. I typically size (again) to the width. Take that same door from above, 16� wide, 3� stiles, so that leaves a 10� wide opening. Take golden section of 10� to determine the width of the field (approx 6�). That leaves the raises (all around) approx 2� each. Add 1/4� or so for engagement in the stiles and rails so the panel is now .618 x total door width + 1/2� wide.

If for some reason this doesn�t work. Try the column orders. I�d use the height for this. Upper rail would be 2/15 x door height. Lower rail would be 1/5 or you could stick with the 2/15 all the way around.

I struggle through panel raising. I�ve never felt that I have it figured out so I can�t help you there. I know I try to do the cross grain portion of several panels at once (and I do that first) The difficulty I have is getting a nice clean fillet.

For the frame portion, the only trick I have (and I think I may have mentioned this to you before) is that the plow iron I use to cut the groove in the stiles and rails is exactly the same width as the mortiser I will use. This allows me to cut the groove and any moldings first.

I hope this is helpful. Best to Silvia!

Adam

Re: Making a frame-and-panel door?

Greg B�tit, Vergennes, VT

>Adam,

Thanks. You have a great gift of being able to explain classic cabinet construction clearly and concisely. This was a question I have been mulling over for some time. My solution has been to just fool with scale drawings until I get something that's not too bad, vaguely aware that the golden section needs to be applied somehow.

I'm going to store your post away, it will save me hours of future futzing around on the drawing board.

Greg

Thanks

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Wow, thanks for the compliment Greg,

What I find interesting is that if you futz around long enough (to borrow your term), your design will come very close to golden section. Its really much more than an esthetic preference. It may be one of those things that you find wherever you look.

In any case, I've found its use helpful. Like probably everyone here, I prefer building to designing. Golden Section certainly gives you a quick starting place.

Adam

Re: Making a frame-and-panel door?

Jeremy Osner

>Thanks Adam -- my question was I guess more about technique than design but this advice is useful anyway. (i.e. I would have asked about designing the proportions if I had gotten that far in my thinking yet.) Merry Christmas to you and to your family!

Re: Making a frame-and-panel door?

Wendell @ Murphy, TX

>I just got the Blackburn videos for Christmas. I really liked them. They are very hand tool oriented. Now I am kicking myself for not taking the hand tool seminar with him at the Dallas woodworking show.

Wendell

Re: Thanks

Peter Berglund in Denver

>"if you futz around long enough (to borrow your term), your design will come very close to golden section."

True enough - proportions like the golden section were computed to fit and explain the shapes already found most pleasing to the eye. If you measure finished work that was designed to please the eye, it comes pretty close to golden section proportions.

Now, what are 'column orders'?

Another print-n-keeper

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

>Adam,

Your posts are an inspiration. Thanks.

Column Orders- help needed

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Peter asked about the column orders and I don't have a good answer.

Here's my crack at it: Apparently the ancients' structural columns took a few basic forms esthetically and followed a strict set of proportion rules (ionic, doric, corinthian, composite, and ???). These designs were used in recent history for architecture and other items including furniture.

18th century furniture designer Thomas Chippendale began his book with dimensioned drawings of the various columns. These could seemingly be used to design various items.

I use them with golden section to help me design the pieces I make so that I don't have to rely on dimensioned drawings of exceptional pieces.

A few years ago I made a dining table. I used the column orders to define the max and min diameters of the legs, the position of the lower stretcher and the size of the apron. The resulting legs don't look like columns. It just helps everything look "right".

Hopefully somebody will step in here and explain this better.

Adam

Re: Column Orders- help needed *LINK*

L. Hanson

>No small order... it is a very deep subject. But here's my take on it in as short a write-up as I can give it (and even though I'm supposed to be an architect, I still had to look it up):

Column orders are derived from classical architecture, and there are 5 orders: Tuscan, Doric, Ionic, Corinthian, and Composite. The height is based upon the diameter of the column - which is divided into 3 parts - the pedestal (made up of the plinth, dado, and cornice); the column itself (made up of the base, shaft, and capital); amd the entablature (made up of the architrave, frieze, and cornice).

In the following, "d" will stand for column diameter (at the base).

For Tuscan:

Pedestal is 2.5d

Column is 7d

Entablature is 1.75d

Doric:

Pedestal is 2.67d

column is 8d

entablature is 2d

Ionic:

Pedestal is 3d

Column is 9d

Entablature is 2.25d

Corinthian and Composite:

Pedestal is 3.33d

Column is 10d

Entablature is 2.5d

These figures were reached by ancient greek architects as the most visually satisfying, and are generally a result of a mathematical equation that used the golden section as its root. It can get pretty deep, though - for example, there are calculations that govern the width of a column, which should be very slightly barrel shaped... The reason for that is more aesthetical than anything, as a set of columns that are all the same diameter look top heavy, and ones that are tapered evenly from the bottom to the top tend to look "too light" towards the top. The barrel shape compensates for these qualities...

HTH

Leif

NorseWoodsmith.com




More on Column orders

Look here *LINK*

Dan Donaldson

>There is some discussion going on in the critiques board, plus here is a search that will tell you more than you ever wanted to know;-)


Search

Re: Column Orders- help needed

Steve Reynolds

>Thank you for such a concise and lucid description of the column order ratios. After much scribbling on paper, I have concluded these are perfectly helpful for a guy designing columns, but frustrating to the guy designing furniture. How does one relate the elements of a column to the elements of, say, a table?

I thought I had the answer when I picked up "Fine Woodworking on Making Period Furniture". Mack Hedley Jr. wrote an article "Applying Classical Proportions - A tea table built to 18th-century rules" that promised to teach the secret handshake to a poseur like myself. I've read the article countless times but all is still a mystery to me. I'm very confused as to why one element may have its height be proportioned based on, say, the whole column and its width proportioned based on, say, only the shaft and entablature.

Any insights on this are greatly appreciated.

Regards,

Steve - off to read that article again, and hoping for a breakthrough

Re: Column Orders- help needed

L. Hanson

>Well, like I said - it can get pretty deep. But here's an example of how it *could* be used in designing a table:

The table will be 18" high - that's a good height for say, a small coffee table. We'll use the orders and the golden section to help us design the rest...

Based on a Doric order, and not concerning ourselves with the pedestal (as most tables don't have one) that means there are 10 units to the base, or 1.8" each. That gives us the thickness of our table leg.

The apron of the table will serve as the entablature, so that means the apron is 2d - or 1.8 x 2 = 3.6" tall.

The legs will be 8d x 1.8" or 14.4" tall.

To give us the proper taper of the leg, we can use the golden section. 1.8" (take 1.8, divide by 1.6) or 1.125".

Using the golden section, we can derive the optimum length of the table - 18" tall x 1.6 (approximate) - so ideally the table should be 28.8" long. So - here's a quick diagram of the table we've just designed:

Realize that this was a quick and dirty exercise, and might violate a few standards of practice - but is just to give an idea as to how to use the orders and the golden section in practice. There are many ways to interperet the rules...

HTH

Leif

NorseWoodsmith.com