Microstamp (repeat) *LINK*

Blatant Hijack - Shop Insurance

John, NY

>Just curious, and maybe a little nervous...

I spoke to my insurance company a while back after doing a inventory of my workshop. I came up with equipment and tools worth $20k [replacement] and about $5k in lumber.

Now my insurance company says it doesn't care, its all covered under our replacement policy, no they don't require a list, no there is no additional premium...

Do you have additional/seperate insurance for your tool 'collections'?

Re: Blatant Hijack - Shop Insurance

David Miller from Iowa

>My guy said the same thing until I pressed him. I forget what my limit was, something like $80k for the entire house contents with no lists necessary (although try to make a claim without proof that you had it and documentation of what it was worth). Anyway, there was some BS in the fine print about that it didn't cover "outbuildings" (like a detached garage shop)and there was something else about the limits I can't remember. Anyway, I pressed the agent, told him I wanted a policy rider that expressly noted that I had a shop full of valuable hand and power tools with a $40k limit for that individually and separate from the house.

Then he tried to gouge me on the premium, but after I put in a steel reinforced anti-kick in door and a security system, the price was palatable.

I suppose every insurer is different, but I had the distinct feeling that he didn't really want to know what I had in the garage so he could always say "Oh, that should have been specifically listed and your policy didn't cover valuable items not individually scheduled" I admit to being cynical about insurance claims after a couple horror stories with my business.

David

Re: Blatant Hijack - Shop Insurance

Paul Kierstead

>I rather expect the US and Canada may be different, but... I looked into this sometime ago w.r.t. my photography gear. Called them (broker) up and said it was really valuable, etc. They said it didn't matter, no special rider was required. I asked about woodworking gear, same thing. Somethings have exceptions; for example, jewelry has quite low limits, and there is a limit to CD's.

Now, what they did tell me was that this was stuff used for *personal use only*. If I was to sell a single photo or woodworking project, I might have trouble as they could argue it was commercial equipment and that is *not* covered in my homeowners.

Re: Blatant Hijack - Shop Insurance

joel

>I will put money on it that if you have any old tools that are valuable - say a Bedrock 604 you won't be able to collect on their replacemnt value because they will get classifed as antique.

It's an extremely dicey situation which of course you don't want to find out if you will collect. What for example does "replacment value mean" for a c. 1920 Stanley #4 in great shape?

What you paid for it - if you have a recipt and you proable don't plus some inflation factor?

Does it mean antique replacement value? what that's without a formal appraiser before the fact

I'm guessing you won't collect.

does it mean the modern model of the product? A brand new tablesaw and a shiny new STanley #4. that's what I'm betting - but only if you have the proof you owned it and what it was worth.

I don't really know the solution except keep inventoryies, keep records, and get a rider no necessarily for the entire shop - but the collectible stuff in it - even if you don't collect. Also make sure you understand how the inventory will be evaluated.

Insurance

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Insurance everywhere, and especially in Texas, is so outrageously priced that, if possible, you're better off self-insuring. Maybe if enough of us take away all their easy money, they'll get more reasonable.

Pam

Self Insuring?

Todd O. Cronkhite Maine Native in FL. Exile :~(

>What is that Pam?

Todd O.

Re: Insurance

joel

>being "self-insured" basically is a warm and fuzzy way of saying you aint got no insurance. Which may be the most realistic course to take.

Of course you can always do what most people do - underinsure - on the gounds that it's cheaper and you won't collect everything anyway so why bother to truely insure for the full amount.

I guess I'm like that.

Re: Blatant Hijack - Shop Insurance

Todd Hughes

>My mother last year had a tree blow over and come though her roof doing a good bit of damage including knocking over a curio cabinet where she has a lot of "collectable figurines". Good many of them were damaged and she put a claim in with her insurance co. I looked up on Ebay what they had sold for but in every case was lots less then what she thought they should go for or what they are listed in her price guides as being worth.When the adjuster came over she got the price guides out and and used the top price as to the worth of her junk.Surprised me but Insurance company never even questioned anything and gave her a very generous check and even let her keep her broken figuines.....I told her to start buying broken pieces and put them in the window under that big pine tree.....Todd

Re: Self Insuring?

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Pay all that insurance money to yourself, perhaps even a special savings account for it. Granted, you're taking a risk for the first few years; but let's face it, most people never collect. I've never collected on homeowner's or renter's insurance policies (actually, if I still rented I'd probably buy insurance, since there are so many other people in control). Unfortunately I collected once on car insurance; but it was less than what I paid over 1.5 years for the crappy nothing policy.

So, are you betting against yourself by buying insurance or betting with yourself?

Pam

Re: Insurance

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>True, but if you're religious about saving that insurance money, in a few years you'll most likely be ahead.

I insure for the minimum, too.

Pam

Roll of the dice!

Greg Phillips, Berrien Springs, MI

>Self-insurance is basically a bigtime roll of the dice. First off, if you have a mortgage, you are required to furnish insurance to protect the bank's asset. If you own your home outright, you'd have to save an awful long time at the going rates to cover even a relatively minor loss. Most homeowners policies are less than $500 a year (many are significantly less). You'd have to save for many years just to cover the contents of the house, let alone the structure itself. And this doesn't even consider the liability issues that are faced by homeowners.

Bottom line - the only time you're really glad you paid your premium is right after you've sustained a major loss. Whether you're dealing with health, auto, life, or home coverage, self-insuring is a huge risk. My dad just died last year at the age of 59. He was a very careful financial manager and had been carefully saving in case of an emergency, but he also had life insurance. Did he think about cancelling his life insurance every time he paid the premium? Yes. Did he expect to use the policy? No. Is my mother glad he was insured. Definitely! The payout on his policies will allow her to live the rest of her life without any major changes in her lifestyle. She is not going to be wealthy, but she won't have to be dependent on anyone else. The cost of my dad's premiums were not even in the same ballpark as the payout she collected.

Insurance is a big fat waste of money until you have a major loss.

Cheers,

Greg

BTW, it is interesting to note that very wealthy people, who should be the most capable of self-insuring, are usually among the most well-insured.

Re: Blatant Hijack - Shop Insurance

Peter Berglund in Denver

>I had a similar experience back in the 80's - had a house fire which gutted two bedrooms upstairs, but destroyed everything else on that floor with smoke and heat. We had a replacement value policy, and it was sort of like a garage sale where I got asking price for every item. Of course the contractor who did the renovations was another story...

Thinking I'll regrill our agent who told me everything in my shop is covered,

Peter

Re: Roll of the dice!

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Yeah, I've gone along with it all these years; but the Republicans in Texas (Rick Perry, our scurilous governor and his legislator cronies who are financed by the insurance companies) have given insurance companies carte blanche and they've gone crazy. $1000 a year for car insurance (liability only) for a person who's only had one parking lot fender bender claim ($1200 claim that I didn't even do and the insurance company refused to listen to me, they paid the crooks) and no tickets in 40 years, $900+ for a house for a person who's never claimed a penny of homeowner's in 25 years of home ownership, and so on. I can afford it (not that I'm rich), but I just got my back up a couple of years ago and refused.

I'm fighting this the only way I know how: take away their money.

Pam

Anyway, the Microstamp is cool

David Miller from Iowa

>

Here we go again!

Joe Rogers, Northern Virginia

>Pam...does everything you personally disagree with ultimately boil down to some poor politician or bureaucrat? Please try to control yourself with the political comments.JR

Re: Microstamp (repeat)

David Barnett

>You're right. Microstamp makes superb tools. I've got several I use for hallmarking and I found an unused Alphanumeric set on eBay for less than seventy dollars (medium-large gloat). Although mine aren't made for marking hardened tool steel, they've long outlasted the cheaper hallmarks from other manufacturers. I really should get one like yours, though. Might try the spring-loaded punch version.

Re: Here we go again!

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Hardly mere opinion, Joe. Facts, just the facts. Anytime you're interested, just look into the Texas insurance problems if you don't believe me. This isn't politics, it's money, and a bunch of greedy insurance and political yahoos. Meanwhile, a little control on your part would be much appreciated.

Pam

Re: Blatant Hijack - Shop Insurance

John, NY

>Thanks for the info. I think i'm going to go back to my insurance company and try to get them to take more money off me and give me a seperate/additional rider with the shop stuff itemized!

For you Pam, of course.

Joe Rogers, Northern Virginia

>I half expected you to justify your position on this. I would be glad to earn your apreciation. Suggest just what control you would like me to use. Feel free to take it off line so as to be able to really express yourself.JR

Please take this offline;-)

Dan Donaldson

>If you want to get any farther into this, please take it offline. We don't need any public arguments on the boards. Thanks;-)

Shop Insurance

David Miller from Iowa

>I saw a thing about Ellis' shop in a recent magazine. Wonder if he has a comment on insurance?

Re: Microstamp (repeat)

Alan Hamilton

>Just to get back to the wisdom of a list. YES! By all means make a list and keep it up to date.

There's no such thing as having too much evidence (unless, of course, you are a Los Angeles County district attorney). If the worst does happen you will need to somehow convince your insurance company that you actually did own all that stuff. In addition, around here many of us have lots of old tools; with old tools you have to show not just that you owned them, but also their condition AND their market value.

With drawers and chests full of tools, it's easy to overlook little things such as tape rules, squares, rulers, straight edges, plane socks, utility knives, and on and on. It's scary to sit down and figure out how much you have invested in that small stuff.

One of the best ways to create a record of all the little things that might otherwise be ignored, is to make a video wherein you explore every drawer, shelf and cupboard. This will document not just that you have these things, but can also serve to illustrate their condition.

Remember that once you have a loss from something like a fire or theft (where no one else can be held liable) you and your insurance company are on opposite sides; their interests are exactly contrary to yours. The company's agents will do everything they can to save the company money. I've represented people in cases where we had to prosecute a civil lawsuit just to get the insurer to pay what they should have paid in the first place.

The better you are prepared with solid evidence as to what EXACTLY you had, its condition and value, the closer you will come to getting a fair price. This is true even if you have relatively few problems settling with your insurer.

Alan