An old road, being traveled yet again.

Re: An old road, being traveled yet again.

joel

>Take a look at one of Roy Underhill's book - I forget which one but it has a portable bench built entirely by hand and from the rough - it's a small bench but you can expand the plans and follow the basic theory. I built the bench and have been very happy with it as a secondary bench - for a permenant bench just make it larger and use a regular solid base. I think the Landis book is fabulous and built the Klaus bench from it years ago, but the Underhill plans are worth the look too.

I don't think you're far off in any direction I just think doing a little more reasearch might add something.

Re: An old road, being traveled yet again.

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

>Build your top so you've got about a foot of overhang on the opposite end from your dominant hand - that is, left if you're right-handed and right if you're left-handed (if you're ambidextrous, don't put it in the middle - I'd recommend at the left in that case, because some planes, like No. 78 rabbets and No. 45 combination planes, are inherently right-handed, another example of the oppression visited on those of us in our right minds but I'm digressing now). Then, if you find a tail vise won't cut it, you can add a Record-type face vise fairly easily. If you are a rust hunter, you can probably stumble over a face vise of this type fairly cheap some time in the next year or so.

You might find putting a board in your edge dogs to plane it a bit frustrating unless you put a stool of some sort under it, to keep it from falling on the floor while you crank the vise up. Two bench slaves (see the Workbench Book) to rest the board on would be ideal; they'll also keep the board supported so you can't push it downward easily; two bench dogs will perhaps be a bit weak in keeping it from downward movement otherwise.

I have no idea if your plan will work, but it's sure worth trying. Benches, like life, are experiments in progress.

Re: An old road, being traveled yet again.

Angus Barclay, in New Zealand

>Your plan to build a quick and dirty first bench then build "the" bench in 5-10 years seems very sensible.

A built-in tail vise and a row of dog holes will serve about 70 per cent of your needs. Your description sounds a bit like you plan to do a "captive sliding dog" type of tail vice. I have one of these and it works well.

I suspect you'll want a face vice at some stage too. They really are very useful for a countless number of tasks. If you decide you need one, they can be retro-fitted without much hassle.

regards

Angus Barclay

Re: An old road, being traveled yet again.

Tony Z.

>St. Roy's book is "The Woodwright's Apprentice".

Re: An old road, being traveled yet again.

David Hammond, in Powder Springs GA

>Thanks for the comments Bill, I really appreciate it. The lack of support for the bench dogs is a good point, one I had not neccesarily considered. I will probably end up with a face vise of some sort, but I hope this will just get me going.

David

Re: An old road, being traveled yet again.

David Hammond, in Powder Springs GA

>The sliding dog description is just what I'm thinking Angus; I appreciate the picture. Thanks for the help.

David

Re: An old road, being traveled yet again.

Dean J in MN

>> So, my plan now is to build a first bench, quick and dirty, and in the

> next five or ten years, plan and build "the" bench.

Very good plan.

> The only wood I have access to right now is some old rough sawn oak that

> is approaching a year plus old. My neighbor has a small tailed Delta

> surface planer, and I've got the other tools neccessary to put enough

> oak 1 by 4's together to cobble together a top 3 1/4" x 20" x 60".

That will be a nice first benchtop, a little short, but nice.

> Tell me what you guys think of my ideas: I'd like to use a shoulder

> vise screw, such as Klauz used in his shoulder vise, to drive a built

> in tail vise - this and a row of dog holes will allow me to plane the

> suface of a board. I'm not planning on any face or leg vice initially,

> but modifications to fix problems will certainly be done when needed. A

> pair of wooden edge dogs, used in the tail vise and dog holes, like

> Krenov uses, should allow me to plane the edge of a board - I would

> also like to use these edge dogs to hold a board vertically for sawing

> dovetails. Along with a stop for sawing, and a shooting board, I should

> be able to work on all six sides of a peice of wood.

Ok, this is your first bench... Go back to Landis' book and look VERY

hard at the Roubo bench. Then look again, then again, then once more.

Notice how it is the one bench that you get to see being used for all

operations we hand tool folk do: Face jointing/thicknessing, edge

jointing, etc... Think about the operations you need to do and how the

bench will allow you to do them. For now I'd cast aside the dancing

images of the tail vise and dog holes. The Roubo bench (or a Nicholsen

bench shown in Landis book, or the bench shown in Moxon) are great

first benches, and may even be your last bench. I'm in the process of

building a "French" bench, very much like the one shown in Moxon. A hook

on the front left, a twin screw on the front right, a planing stop and

a few holdfasts. I'm using my current bench, with a tail vise, and I

have not once used it (the tail vise) to build this current new bench.

After picking up a few holfasts there is no need. (Plus I'm building the

top 8 feet long, on a 6 foot bench, so I can't use it anyway.) What you

can do with holdfasts and some battens is pretty amazing, and fast!

> What am I missing? Is a tail vice, with edge dogs, enough to begin

> learning on? Is it impossible to use the edge dogs for clamping a board

> vertically and sawing dovetails?

You probably want a face vise of some sort to cut dovetails. But, there

is old text that describes a twin screw vise that is held in place with

a few holdfasts. Which is a neat idea really, you build what amounts to

a large clamp (kind of like a handscrew) and then you clamp the rear jaw

to the bench with a couple holfasts. Viola, you have your vise to cut

your dovetails. Not sure how it will work for cutting tenons, the load

is in a different direction, but it may be OK.

Again, think about all the operations you need to do, and how your

bench will handle them. If you are going to use power tools for

jointing/thicknessing/joint cutting your bench will be different than

mine. I made a list of all the operations, and made a note how the

bench was going to deal with it. Once I had a note by all the ops,

I had a bench design for me. It may not be for you.

Good Luck, a bench is a complex project, even if it seems so very simple

on the surface.

-Dean

Re: An old road, being traveled yet again.

Jim in Burlington Ontario

>If possible I'd seriously consider making it thinner but longer. It's a PITA to keep lifting your work off the bench to plane or work on say drawers even another foot will help. I would take my time and look for a face vice you will go crazy without one. Have a look thru e-bay that's where I bought mine you'll have better luck with the description using makers names ie wilton.

Insane workbench rant

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Dear Dave,

First let me say I agree with Dean above. So if you hated what he said, skip my lengthy insane rant!

That said, I�m not crazy about your ideas. I think you�re setting yourself up for a struggle when you should be giving yourself advantages and opportunities for success. In my opinionated opinion, you should take advantage of our (my) mistakes and move the craft ahead for everybody after you. Here�s my suggestion:

The only wood I have access to right now is some old rough sawn oak

Skip the oak and the surface planer. Switch to construction grade 4x4�s. Glue them together one joint at a time until you get 20� or so. Leave them the full 8� long.

enough oak 1 by 4's together to cobble together a top 3 1/4" x 20" x 60"

Too short for what you want to do.

I'd like to build a few end tables, drawers, maybe a trunk - smaller pieces of furniture such as this.

The long bench lets you plane the molding at all at once. Then when you miter it, the profiles match perfectly. The long bench lets you edge plane and rabbet the carcass stock when its long, then you cut it up into short pieces for your little project and they�re all the same width and the rabbets match. Why try to plane 4 legs to the same dimensions? Just plane one stick for your end table, then cross cut it. See this is the way around precision. Get me?

I'd like to use a shoulder vise screw, such as Klauz used in his shoulder vise, to drive a built in tail vise

Skip it. Its going to take forever to build that thing and when its done it may not work all that great. Also, your bench is so short you�ll probably be left with no more than a 4� space between the dogs.

You don�t actually need a tail vise. Get a smith to make you a toothed planing stop (or you could make your own- there are instructions in the workbench book as I recall). Learn to plane into the stop. You might want to lower your bench a little. Do you use wooden planes? They help. You push down against the stock when you work with a planing stop. You control the stock under the plane. If you look at 17th century plane handles, this technique begins to make sense. Not sure how it will work with a bailey plane. Not saying it can�t be done, I just don�t know how.

Make sure you allow the opportunity to clamp to the bench top. Don�t build some shaker bathroom vanity underneath it. You don�t needa sticking or shooting board/machinist�s jig. Your entire bench becomes a sticking board by clamping a board to the back (like a Japanese trestle).

A pair of wooden edge dogs, used in the tail vise and dog holes, like Krenov uses, should allow me to plane the edge of a board - I would also like to use these edge dogs to hold a board vertically for sawing dovetails.

Well, you�d need a vertical load path or the board would fall through under clamp pressure. I�d go with more direct supports- easier and stronger. Make the legs 4x4�s. Bore �� holes with an auger and slip holdfasts in there for vertical supports. Make sure the legs are flush with the front of the bench. If the work is shorter than the distance between the legs, throw a 2x4 in the hold fasts, then place the work on top of that. You can do the same when you hold stock for dovetailing. Only other thing you need is a forward edge stop. A crochet (hook) works well. It should be in front of the left leg. You could bore a deep hole into your bench edgewise and stick another holdfast in there. You could put in a lag screw instead. Leave it sticking out �� or so.

So now what you�ve got is a bench that will actually work. A bench that has proven itself over centuries. Its the French bench shown in Felibien, Moxon, and Roubo. This bench should be the default bench for all of us. It�s the one bench we know works. Its cheap, easy to build, and does exactly what we need a bench to do. You don�t have to M&T it. It can be held together with carriage bolts.

See, here�s the thing. Why move from your MDF and 2x4�s? What�s that bench not doing for you? The tail vise is not a panacea. That was my mistake. I thought it would solve all my problems. It didn�t. A lot of times you plane 45 degrees to the grain. That tail vise isn�t/can�t help you then. It limits the length you can work, it takes the right hand corner away so you can�t saw there comfortably. They look great in the woodcraft store, they really do. So put one on your next bench.

Adam

insane old tool curmudgeon

I agree

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>

Re: Insane workbench rant

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I'm going to disagree a bit about the dog holes vs planing stop. Often I need to plane across wider pieces, say those resulting from glue-ups like table tops. It has been quite helpful to have a couple of rows of holes for which I made some L shaped stops, which hold the wood in place when planing on the diagonal.

Pam

NO NO nO ooo-OT

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>You can't disagree with the old tool curmudgeon's insane workbench rant! You can only back away, go for help, or shake your head in dismay and disappointment!

Adam

A pathetic cry for help.

Doctor: "He was obviously unhinged by holiday stress and wandered into the hospital singing a derranged version of the Christmas song "Its the most wonderful time, of the year..""

Re: Insane workbench rant

Dean J in MN

>Yep Pam, but you can do that with a batten and holdfasts too. :-)

Dean, who feels like I may be slipping into Adams insanity! :)

Re: NO NO nO ooo-OT

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Hey! If you're going to talk about my Japanese planing beam without attribution, I reserve the right to disagree. After all, at this point it's probably curmudgeon vs curmudgeon. What's a curmudgeon to do?

Pam

Re: Insane workbench rant

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Well, effectively my L stop is a batten. As to holdfasts, you're assuming I've ever gotten one to hold a piece fast for more than one or two strokes. To say nothing of the threat of collision between holdfast and plane, jarring, knocks my glasses off, ....

Pam

Re: Oops

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Just realized that you might have been talking about the Japanese trestle bench instead of my planing beam. Sorry.

Pam

Re: Insane workbench rant

Dean J in MN

>...true... My holdfasts are far away from my work, making my bench more like a trestle as you say above...

-Dean

Re: Insane workbench rant

David Barr

>This is all assuming you can get decent holdfasts. I can't seem to get good ones that work. The ones from Woodcraft don't work well on my bench. What I need are the really big, flexible iron ones that are forged.

Re: Insane workbench rant

Dean J in MN

>That is true, my current benchtop is 2x4's and my jorgy holdfasts work fine. I am hoping they will also work well in the new maple top which will be 4 inches thick as well...

-Dean

Re: An old road, being traveled yet again.

Alan Hamilton

>David,

If the bench Joel wrote about, the one in The Woodwright's Apprentice, is the same one I remember, you might get some very good ideas by looking it up. His bench is dirt cheap to make, portable, and does about everything a bench needs to do.

Saint Roy's bench has no vises, store-bought or otherwise obtained. In fact, other than hold-fasts, he uses no store-bought clamping devices of any kind. But again, his bench is completely functional. I found it enlightening to see just how necessary are so many of the widgets we think we cannot do without; and because you're planning to make your bench on the cheap, you too might find it inspiring to see how many expensive items you can do without, and just how cheaply a perfectly usable bench can be made.

Alan

Re: An old road, being traveled yet again.

joel

>It's the one. Roy's bench is a 18th century version of a 19tyh century bench. I brought my back upto the 19th century.

For it's job - a portable bench I can throw into the back of a car it's perfect. IT was also made entirely with hand tools including milling all the wood.

For a stationalry bench I would do the following:

Make it longer. the longer the better.

Get rid of the till (just collects dirt)

Get rid of the hinges. THe basic M+T construction is very sound but there is play in the hinges. It's pretty solid as drawn (and very solid compared to other small benches) but without the need for portablilty I would have probably just used removable stretchers and no hinges.

A real tail vise is nice but not as important as holes for holdfasts and various planing stops.

Re: Insane workbench rant

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Yeah, went that route, the expensive hand forged ones didn't work as well as the cheapo ones from Garrett Wade.

Pam

Ditteaux Roubo

Jeff Schmidt (KY)

>You can't go wrong with a Roubo especially as a first bench. You can add the leg vise up front later if you really need it. If you get into an unusual situation where the planing stop is not sufficient, you can easily use wedges to hold the piece in place.

Yep, put Landis back on the coffee table where he belongs.

<>< <><

Don�t build some shaker bathroom vanity underneath it.

That should win quote of the week.

Re: Insane workbench rant

David Hammond, in Powder Springs GA

>Sheesh, I leave for a day, come back and the thread is walking off the screen... :o) That's what I love about this side of the world; you neanders always have opinions, and wonderfully opinionated one's at that.

Dean and Adam, thank you so much for taking the time to write, and try to help this poor soul here who knows a good bit about a lathe, but nothing about working with hand tools. I appreciate all the suggestions Adam, and I will definitely be taking another look at the Roubo - it's simplicity hit me like a ton of bricks when I first saw it; maybe it needs too again.

My immeadiate response is that I may go ahead with the oak, and turn that top and sand-filled box into just another workbench - a beater bench with a metalworking vise because I'd like to fiddle with some metal stuff in the future.

Hmm, you guys have given me much to consider! Thank you, sincerely, for I am truly beginning to see the value in learning from those who have gone before me in this, what I see as, an adventure into an awfully old way of working wood.

Thank you gentlemen, and curmudgeon's alike; you'r advice is invaluable.

David Hammond

My Dad & Me, Inc.