Why Camellia Oil?

Re: Why Camellia Oil?

Bob Smalser

>Voodoo marketing hype.

Whale oil is cool stuff, too....but so what?

Professionals generally use what their jobber carries because they use a lot of it and a commercial account is the cheapest way to buy supplies.

That usually means WD-40 as a water displacer followed by Mobile One 30wt on a rag.

Chemistry, again?! *LONG*

Scott in Douglassville, PA

>Ok, like Sir Bob above, I was figurin' that it was hype (Highland Hardware makes some statement that it was a traditional treatment used by samurais, for example). Most of the literature on the Internet that was elicited by a google search was heavy in the homeopathic/health food vein, so little help was afforded there. I did, however, find a link of particular interest.

Camellia oil is high in oleic acid (I've seen reports of up to 85%). Oleic acid is a naturally-occuring fatty acid. The reference I found, summarizing some research by a biologist at the University of Houston, suggests that oleic acid shows a tendency to bond to steel. When solutions containing oleic acid were prepared in a steel container, up to 95% of the oleic acid adsorbed to the steel.

Now, why this seems, on inspection and at least intuitively, of significance here is because fats tend to be strongly hydrophobic. Treat your steel with oleic acid, and (again, intuitively) you should be depositing a layer of fatty acids which should repel water. I'm sure it's not an abrasion-resistent treatment, but for storage, it might be worth trying.

So, where're you gonna get some oleic acid? Well, that nifty camellia oil certainly would work. However, there are some easier, cheaper sources. Olive oil has between ~55-85% oleic acid; canola oil, ~63%; peanut oil, ~35-72%. Because of the health benefits from high oleic acid oils, specific varieties are being bred to maximize oleic oil content.

So, I still agree with Sir Bob - there's a hype engine at work in regards to camellia oil. However, there may be some science (specifically, my friend and yours, Chemistry) backing up some of the hype. I'd be inclined, however, to try the much cheaper olive oil sitting in my kitchen as a steel treatment. For what it's worth...

Re: Chemistry, again?! *LONG*

joel

>Olive oil will eventually go rancid - camilia oil wont

Don't agree....

Link Van Cleave

>"Voodoo marketing hype."

Don't ever remember camellia oil being maketed or hyped heavily. If it were then it's benifits real or imagined would be well known.

"Whale oil is cool stuff, too....but so what?"

How do you know it is cool. Maybe it was hyped and romaticized. I don't think it is the prefered oil for keeping rust off of high carbon steel. If it were the Japanese would have used it because they had ample access to whale oil.

"Professionals generally use what their jobber carries because they use a lot of it and a commercial account is the cheapest way to buy supplies."

True for machinests on large production shops but we are talking about woodworkers. Most of the cabinet shops I know of don't buy bulk oil. I am a professional and I don't by bulk oil. I do buy a small bottle of camellia oil once every 6 years or so.

"That usually means WD-40 as a water displacer followed by Mobile One 30wt on a rag."

I do use WD-40 from time to time but not for my hand tools. I have used 30wt but again not on my hand tools.

Camellia oil ? Very light weight, smells and feels pleasent. Puts a very fine film on my chisels, saw blades (both power and hand ) and plane irons when needed. Doesn't oil up the wood I am working on. Is a pure plant oil, is food safe therefor very non toxic. I also find the litte plastic despenser thingie with the felt wick to be a very convenient way to apply the oil. I think it works well for it's intended purpose and I don't think I am a victim of maketing hype voodoo or other wise, or a unmanly non professional. I tend to be very pragmatic and have the general opinion that woodworkers buy a lot of stuff they don't need. However Camellia serves my needs well.

LVC

Re: Why Camellia Oil?-In brief

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>It provides an effective chemical and physical bearier to moisture that is easily applied, long lived, and easily removed if desired.

Specific characteristics include:

It's none hardening (won't resinify, "gum-up").

It's low viscosity (will flow efficiently over the blade, which can result in a thin film that also has limited self repairing abilities )

It will actually lightly bond to many steel alloys.

It's non toxic both with respect to the use and the finished product.

It's easy wipe on application avoids aerosols that can cause other health problems.

It will abosrb into wood but has minimal to no effect on most wood finishes

Agree....

Wiley Horne--Glendora CA

>A little bit goes a long way, and that fine film will stay there. Wiley

Rustproofing comparision where camellia failed

Tom Price

>Fatty acids will not be as hydrophobic as fully saturated/paraffinic oils, e.g. mineral oil. I don't think any vegetable oil is really well suited for rust prevention.

The April 2004 issue of Popular Woodworking had a nice article on rust and rustproofing (even had a section on electrolysis). The author, Michael Rabkin, provided a comparison of several rustproofing treatments on the same piece of cast iron. Camellia oil resulted in "thick bubbly layered rust throughout the section." Guess what? Good old WD-40 and Boeshield T-9 looked a lot better with hardly any rust present. Fluid Film also performed well.

Myself, I use mineral oil from the drugstore cut with WD-40 or baby oil (also mineral oil, just a lighter fraction). And straight WD-40.

- Tom

What Lyn said... also, RenWax

David Barnett

>Camellia oil works very well. However, be sure what you are getting is truly pure camellia oil.

That said, I can hear the Gulf waves breaking from my shop and find Renaissance Wax to be somewhat more reliable and convenient for preventing rust in the ocean air, both on hand and stationary tools. And while I love AC, weather like we're having right now is too lovely to shut out.

I keep chamois and 5" square Selvyt cloths (which only get better with repeated washings) for wiping down steel and to buff applied wax (when I bother); planes, carving tools, gravers, everything gets wiped down and coated.

Chuckle, chuckle.

Bob Smalser

>Listen up there, son....I've got this special clove-scented nose oil collected by Japanese blacksmith grandmothers in a remote, mountainous province of the northern islands inhabited by the world's best traditional iron workers.

It's 400 bucks a gallon...but you absolutely, positively can't care for your tools properly without it.

I'll also cryogenically treat all your blades and irons for only 10 bucks each plus shipping...

...pack them up and I'll holler at you the next time our pond freezes over.

(insert sly grin here)

chemistry clarification

bill tindall

>Animal and Vegetable "oils" and fats are in fact esters of organic acids such as stearic, oleic, etc and glycerol. (An ester is a chemical composed of an acid an an alcohol) There is essentially no unesterified acid in vegetable oils. That is to say there is no oleic acid in the oils you mentioned. However, there are esters of oleic acid in these oils. When it is said that some oil "containes some acid" a more correct statement would be that the oil is composed of an ester of this acid. So, while oleic acid may indeed absorb to iron ( not surprising since it is a surfactant) it does not imply that an oil that contains this acid will be any better or worse for depositing an adhering oil film on iron.

Iron can't rust unless there is water available at the iron surface. Oils ( and simple paint) prevent rust by shielding the metal surface from moisture-containing air.

In my experience T-9 is awesome at preventing rust but it leaves a sticky film. I only used it on stored items or items exposed to harsh moisture conditions such as planer bed in outdoor shed.

I suspect Bob is a hunter, in a climate subject to occasional sprinkles. If so, I'm sure he can attest that a light wipe down with a petroleum oil prevents guns from rusting under conditions more harsh (think duck blinds) than the average chisel is exposed to. I expect Camellia oil is chosen more for asethetic reasons than rust inhibiting performance, which is not to imply that it is any worse than other oils in performance.

Some men might like the smell of a refined light petroleum oil, while others could prefer Camellias(I'm resisting the description Arnold S. used for the legislators here :-).

Bill Tindall

Marvel mystery oil

Jack Guzman from Maine

>Seeing we're having a technical oil discussion how does MMO fit into this conversation? I have always used it as a handy lube in automotive applications and I put a drop of it in bolt thread holes on old planes.I also use it when drilling in metal for a lube.Are there any properties of this fluid that would make it not ok to use on woodworking tools?---Jack

Re: Chuckle, chuckle.

john jesseph

>Yeah, there's no use for camelia oil. Slather your tools in WD40 or Bob's old crankcase oil instead. Just send the camelia oil to me, I'll take it off your hands.

Re: Rustproofing comparision where camellia failed

Link Van Cleave

>This is getting tiresome. Nobody claimed camellia oil is cosmoline. It isn't meant to be used with machinery as a heavy rust prevenative. Common sense would tell you that. The test the wood magazine did was on cast iron in a heavy rust environment. This is like comparing a dovetail saw with a hack saw on a piece of metal. Guess what the hack saw wins but is it relevant and do you want to cut wood dovetails with a hack saw ? Camellia oil is great for its intended purpose. I wouldn't put it on a tool to be stored for a long time. There are better things for that. I will give you a perfect example for a good use of camellia oil. I have a travel tool box. It has everything I need to do fine work on a job. Nice sharp chisels, planes, scraper, etc. I figure I can use anybodys skill saw but I want those sharp and accurate tools to do my thing. I have a nice starrett square. From time to time I oil it with the camellia oil and put it away in the box. When I am on a job and I need to use the square it is nice and rust free and equally important I don't pick up oil on my fingers and get messy oil marks on the nice clean wood I am working. Everything stays nice and clean. If I was in a metal shop I would use something heavier, more rust preventave and messier. If anyone wants to use baby oil or 3 and 1 or what ever that is fine but there is nothing wrong with using camellia oil and a lot that is right. It is as serveral have mentioned a nice, non toxic, (you can eat it ) light in viscosity and color, pleasent smelling, convenient oil to use for light rust protection on high carbon steels. I have bought 2 bottles in 20 years, hardly a expensive proposition. (I had said in a pervious post once every 7 years or so but I thought about it and I have only bought 2 bottles and I just recently bought the second one and the first one was a small bottle. ) So even if I am being a dumb rube falling for voodoo market hype it hasn't cost me much.

LVC

Re: Camellia oil

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I use it, too, love the lack of sticky residue. I also use it on plane bottoms and saws for frictionless work that doesn't muck up the wood surface for finishing. Not that it's the only oil that can do this, I guess, but I haven't found anything as good.

Pam

For rust protection, I use wax.

Mark Harrison -- in Sydney, Australia

>I've said this in the past but every truth needs reventilating once in a generation :-)

I live within sight of the Pacific Ocean and I can hear the surf. Today I could even hear children in the surf playing! Everything in this house suffers from the deleterious effects of the salt air. My table saw sits in the car port with nothing but an old horse riding oil skin coat as protection.

I have not tried Boeshield (I would not even know where to buy it) but everything else has failed. Including Camelia oil. I use Liberon lubricating wax. It is the best of all the products I've tried.

I am not an agent of Liberon or any related companies. I just like the product.

Re: Rustproofing comparision where camellia failed

Tom Price

>Link said: "This is getting tiresome. Nobody claimed camellia oil is cosmoline."

I was just reporting the only side-by-side comparison I was aware of since the original question on this thread centered on the utility of camellia oil as a rust preventative in comparison to, say, 3 and 1 oil.

No it ain't cosmoline by a long shot but it is promoted as a rust preventative. Why else use it? As an aftershave for tools? Rust is rust and one might as well use something that actually does prevent rust with some efficacy. Camellia oil doesn't appear to stack up well with even lowly WD-40 in a side-by-side test (I mean, c'mon "thick bubbly layered rust throughout the section.")? . Not totally worthless since it apparently smells nice...

BTW, I've never had a problem with WD-40 or mineral oil on my tools interfering with finishes. Silicone, yes. WD-40, no.

Re: Rustproofing comparision where camellia failed

Todd Hughes

>If it doesn't work as well as WD40 as a rust preventive it must be pretty lame because in my experance WD40 isn't very good at all for this job compared to other oils.I use lots of WD40 mainly because it is cheap , common and i like the spray can but not for it's rust preventing attributes since doesn't seem to do much to really prevent rust past the very short term. I think you would be better off with a good Gun Oil. I have had very good luck with Breakfree but now just use some military surplus oil I picked up on the cheap at a gun show.Really works fine....

I have to admit I have never used this Camellia oil it but sounds like it would be the choice for an application where you don't really need any oil and you want it to smell nice and to be able to eat it......Todd

Breakfree

Bob Hackett

>Breakfree is an excellent weapons oil and has been used by both the military and law enforcement for a long time now for that purpose.

I may be wrong but I think I read somewhere that it has silicone as an ingredient.That would make it unsuitable for WWing as silicone plays hell with finishing.

Have you ever tried a product named Kroil Todd?It stays in place far better than WD40 and seems to penetrate faster and deeper.I first lucked into it while working in the oilfield and the fishermen up here swear by it.One of the locals even gave up dogfish liver oil over it,no small compliment as his family swore by dogfish oil for over 4 generations.Seems our great great grandfathers were not immune to hype either.;^)

Mainely,Bob-Who does NOT miss welding on dogfish liver oil treated steel.I think I`d almost prefer coal tar epoxy,but by the narrowest of margins.

Re: Breakfree

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>Yah, Breakfree is great and I use it on all my guns. If I remember correctly, it has teflon in it, which will interfere with some finishes. Breakfree is a bit more prone to stay on ones hands, while the nontoxic Camelia wipes off with the residue absorbing in.

I'm actually a little amazed by the endorsements of WD 40 for preserving tool blades. It leaves a much thicker film, is more prone to attract dust and grit. evenually hardens to a waxy sticky finish that is hard to get off one's hands, and after all that, still isn't a great rust preventative. For those that care for it, please spray liberally and often. I have a fair amount of shares of WD40 and would love to see sales increase.

Re: What Lyn said... also, RenWax

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>I also really like Renaissance Wax for protecting all the surfaces of my planes, power tool tables, and many blades. I used to use it for all my blades, but found a few blades had developed rust between the chip breaker and blade. Frankly, what I do with all my chisel/plane blades these days is coat them occasionally with Renaissance Wax and use the Camilia oil in between. Same with backsaws, where I first use Renaissance wax to protect the entire blade, then use the little wick bottle of Camilia oil go down the sides of the teeth after every use.

Thanks for bringing Renaisance wax into the discussion.

Re: Breakfree

Todd Hughes

>I have heard good reports about Kroil though never used it, imagine it would be a good choice.I have also used Rem Oil an oil put out by Remington which was good.Don't know about what is in Breakfree but wonder how a thin coating would do anything to the wood you use the tool on unless maybe you keep the soles of a plane oiled up for lubriaction...but again I don't know for sure.....Todd , down at his girl friends oiling his new M1 Garand with Singer Sewing machine oil

Watch your thumb:-)

Joe Rogers, Northern Virginia

>If you load it!JR

Second, and a question *LINK*

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

>Wax, properly applied, lasts a long time and doesn't leave a sticky residue either. As confirmed in a recent thread (see link), it doesn't seem to interfere with finishes.

Can't remember what I paid for the can I have now, but it's sure easy to find - any borg carries it - and it's only the second can I've purchased in 20+ years (the first one dried out because I hadn't used it fast enough).

Oh, and Mark: how long does it take to teach an oilskin coat to ride a horse?


Recent discussion of wax on plane soles

Re: Second, and a question

Mark Harrison -- in Sydney, Australia

>The coat is easy. The trick is training the horse :-)

See the image for what I am talking about. I don't know that they are entirely originally an Australian design but this is what the best dressed Jackaroo (what you North Americans call a cowboy) will have in his kit.