Tormek-good enough?

Differences in Honing

Steve Elliott

>I use the Tormek as a grinder only, so I can't offer a direct comparison of the edges honed on the Tormek versus those honed on waterstones.

My opinion of a shaving-sharp edge produced by any method is that it is plenty good enough for almost any woodworking application. The differences in edges carefully honed on the very finest abrasives using the most exacting techniques are real, but they don't matter much except for a few specialized uses, such as smooth planing difficult timbers. In most other cases, I'd go with whatever method is quick and comfortable for you.

My experience with the Tormek is that it doesn't quite produce an edge that is straight, and I use waterstones or diamond lapping to guarantee straightness. That's because I'm concentrating on the specialized area of smoothing plane performance, where an arc of .001" across the width of an edge actually makes a difference. For most work, exact edge shape matters much less.

Regarding edge durability, it seems that chips on an edge occur more often where a deeper scratch reaches the edge. This 200x image shows the largest chip in an edge that has planed 200 lineal feet of cherry.

I doubt it's coincidence that the edge chipped right where the deeper scratch intersects the edge. This suggests that an edge with deeper scratches is not as durable as an edge uniformly honed with a fine abrasive. One of the comments I've read about an edge honed on the Tormek is that the honing paste contains larger grits that leave deeper scratches. This may be an acceptable trade-off for the speed and ease of honing on the Tormek.

If your happy with your results...

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>Then why change? It seems to me a lot of people spend too much time trying to obtain that prefect edge. Sharp is sharp enough IMHO no since wasting more time sharpening than woodworking.

Re: If your happy with your results...

Tom H

>You are absolutely right. Sometimes I think that if I spent half the time actually woodworking that I spend sharpening/trying to get the ultimate edge, I would be well... While I certainly admire and respect David Charlesworth, and I do not presume to be even remotely in his class, I think his sharpening/honing methods are a bit involved. The ruler trick does seem pretty neat though.

Re: Differences in Honing

Tom H

>I had trouble getting a straight edge with the jig supplied by tormek. I bought the fasttrak honing guide, and it works very well.

Re: Tormek-good enough?

Jeff Heath

>Tom- The tormek system gives you a hollow ground, which creates a slight concave face on the bevel. When you polish the edge, you only need to polish the bottom 1/8th inch. When you use the other procedures you've mentioned, you are using a flat grind on the bevel. The purpose of the primary bevel is so that you don't have to polish the entire bevel, just the microbevel. That way, when you need to touch it up, you only need to re-sharpen the microbevel.

I'd love a Tormek, but it is not good enough ...

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>Tom

First off let me say that 90% of the time I hate sharpening! Only 10% is the Zen experience for me - I'd rather be woodworking. So I have also looked seriously at alternate methods to my current (several years now) preference for waterstones. I came so close once to buying a Tormek. Perhaps I still will ... Nah, it is not good enough .. Oh I wish it were good enough ...

If you can wait through a couple of short stories, then you may understand why I feel this way.

Situation one. You buy a new plane, a decent one, and it arrives with a factory-sharpened blade. The one that made me aware of the issue was a Mujingfang Smoother. Now the blade is sharp, sharp enough to shave with. So it had got to be sharp - yes? Perhaps. Maybe not. But it feels so sharp! So you set the plane for a fine shaving and plane away. And you marvel at the whispy shavings that you produce. BUT then you look carefully at the surface of the timber you have just planed and you notice that it is really not as smooth as you thought it would be. In fact, it has a grainy, slightly rough texture. Mmmm.

Situation two. I attend a Woodshow where the Tormek is being demonstrated by an enthusiastic salesman (or should that be "salesperson"). I am equally enthusiastic, particularly since I have a memory of seeing The Norm using one and slicing newsprint with his chisels after this. The salesman shows me how it is set up, how you change the grits, and how you hone on the leather wheel after the fine wheel has ground the bevel. He slices and dices as well as Norm. Then he hands me the plane blade and I run a finger tip over it. What's this? It feels rough! The salesman assures me the blade is sharp - well I saw him slice newsprint, didn't I? Well, for me a sharp blade should feel smooth, in fact should not feel sharp at all.

So I know that, if I used this blade, it would leave the same rough surface that I experienced with the factory-sharpened Mujingfang. The Tormek grinds to 1000 grit. This is nearly where the lowest Waterstone I use (800) begins. My next up is a 1200, then a 6000 and finally a natural waterstone. If I then hone (with Veritas green) I end up with a mirror surface that does not have any visible-to-the-eye grind markings. If I look at the Tormek-honed blade, I see plenty of markings.

David Charlesworth's ruler trick (see his video) is aimed at reducing the amount of steel that one has to remove in order to sharpen to 6000 or 8000 grit. I could not imagine him stopping at 1000 grit and saying "that is good enough". Well, for some it may be good enough, but I would then add, "good enough for what?". Certainly not a smoothly planed surface.

So I would not use a Tormek alone for a plane blade. Preparing it for higher grits, certainly, but not beyond this point.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: I'd love a Tormek, but it is not good enough .

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>In my opinion, you are wasting time if you go from a 800 grit to a 1200 grit water stone and then to 6000. I'm betting you would get the same results if you went directly to the 6000 from the 800 and then stropped. I go from 900 to 8000 and it does not take long on the 8000 grit to hone all the 800 marks away. My blades are hollow ground and I'm generally honing a very small part right at the tip. Just a thought, since you mention that you don't like sharpening much ;)

Re: I'd love a Tormek, but it is not good enough .

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>Moses

I think you're right about the 6000. I have recently begun skipping it and not noticed a difference, either in the sharpness/smoothness or the surface reflection of the blade (after honing - the natural stone leaves a matte surface).

Not so sure about the 800 and 1200 though.

Also, with the exception of my Japanese laminated blades (mostly chisels but a few planes), I do hollow grind the bevels. This certainly reduces the amount of time needed to sharpen.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: I'd love a Tormek, but it is not good enough .

Don Thompson - Cutler Ridge, Florida

>I'm with you, and it is not a case of sour grapes, as I have a Tormek. What one gets from the Tormek is a shiny, 1000-grit honing. The leather wheel just sort of polishes the grooved surface left by the stone wheel - it does not remove the grooves. It is sharp (whatever that means), to a certain extent, but one can do better, and the results can be noticed when doing fine planing or paring.

It is very clear under magnification.

Difference between sharp and refined...

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>Derek well illustrated the difference between sharp and refined (the latter being mostly my choice of terminology)

Sharp is when all portions of an edge are composed of two planes at intersect at an angle at or below 90 degrees (usually for flat blade purposes, 20-35 degrees; for round turning tools, from 35-90 )

Refined is when all sharp points of an edge occur along the same planes.

Both are essential for clarity and smoothness of the cut surface, as well as optimal tool life.

As a crude but quick example, all points along the edge of a serrated bread or tomato knive may be sharp, but the points of an edge are not in line along two of the three planes. It may cut efficiently, but some the edge will wear more quickly (due to lack of side to side buttressing-the narrower the points and the deeper the valleys between them, the worse this will be), and when used for a pushing cut rather than a sideways slicing cut (as a chisel or plane blade is most commonly used) and you will get a very uneven surface.

What you want in a blade for finish smoothing or refined cuts is a blade that has an edge both sharp and refined. The Tormek will allow you to set proper geometry and give you a sharp edge, but it won't give you a refined edge.

Now if I could just get woodturners to take this stuff seriously.

People too...

Rob Lee

>...can also be sharp - but not refined ...:)

Cheers -

Rob

(heading across the pond...)

Refined Edge - Is that trademarked? I like it!

Don Thompson - Cutler Ridge, Florida

>

Re: Difference between sharp and refined...

Tony Reynolds

>"Now if I could just get woodturners to take this stuff seriously. "

If we had to manually push the wood into the edge, we probably would. :) All that inertia makes less than optimal edge easier to deal with.

Tony

Re: Difference between sharp and refined... *LINK*

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>Power brings a reduction in effort and time to perform the task, but does nothing to effect the reduction in edge life or quality of surface finish that comes from edges that are not refined. I've written about this elsewhere with respect to woodturning. I'm hardly alone in this, such prestigous woodturners as Stocksdale, Osolnik, Stubbs and Glaser, just to name a very few, refined their edges with honing. I won't both this group with more on woodturning, but those who care to follow my thoughts on this can find it in the article on fundamental principles of sharpening at the link below


http://www.fholder.com/Woodturning/lyn.html

Re: Difference between sharp and refined...

Tony Reynolds

>Hi Lyn,

I'm not disagreeing, just a weak attempt at humor. Although there's a big list of well respected turners who don't advocate honing as well. Ellsworth and Batty are two that I've had contact with that come to mind. I personally don't hone my turning tools but do hone my irons, chisels, and carving gouges.

Tony

I hone

Bob Hackett

>If it`s good for your hand chisels why wouldn`t it be good fro your turning chisels?It seems to me all th same reasons apply.

That being said,it still doesn`t stop my fellow turners from asking why I waste my time.I in turn ask them why they feel the need to waste sandpaper in the coarser grades.

Mainely,Bob-Who feels it`s just common sense to hone an edge you want to cut cleanly.