Tormek for japanese chisels and carving tools?

Re: Tormek for japanese chisels and carving tools?

steve knight

>I have not experimented with a hollow grind on japanese tools. they are too expensive to experiment on (G) but the tormek would be better then free hand grinding them. it's hard to do that with laminated steel.

the only way to get a great edge from the tormek is to finish on stones. the tormek skips way to many stone grades for a high quality edge. same with the makita.

Re: Tormek for japanese chisels and carving tools?

Bob Powers

>Hi,

I have had my Tormek for several years, and consider it indispensible. I don't enjoy sharpening, and the Tormek removes the bother.

In answer to your questions:

Question #1-I haven't the foggiest notion.

Question #2-Although I am not a carver, I have seen various types of gouges sharpened on it. I have done my lathe gouges with good results.

Question #3-There are two jigs for kitchen knives, one large and one small. The only problem I had in learning to sharpen kitchen knives was in deciding what the appropriate angle might be. I made one phone call, and received the answer that each side of the knife is a 20 degree bevel. From there on, it was easy.

Question #4-The Tormek does not put the sharpest edge possible on a tool in my opinion. After I am through grinding on the Tormek, I give the tool a quick lick on a hard felt wheel for chisels, plane irons, etc., and on a medium felt wheel for curved tools. I would not presume to say that my way is the only way, but if I am able to do what I want to do after sharpening, that's good enough for me.

As to the learning curve, Tormek provides you with a very good video and a very good manual. I probably spent 20 minutes before sharpening my first tool.

Sorry to be so windy, but I hope this helps.

Regards,

Bob

Re: Tormek for japanese chisels and carving tools?

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>In terms of general comments on the system, do a search in the archives on my name and the Tormek and you will find a lot, particularly in comparison to the Lee Valley Power Sharpening System (QPSS).

As to your specifics:

Question#1: Japanese chisels ....?

When the Tormek wheel is new and almost 10 inches in diameter, the hollow grind is very modest and will have little effect on anything but Mortise Chisels. It will be even less of an issue if you finish off on flat stones. I wouldn't hesitate to use it with Japanese bench chisels with angles of 30 degrees or so, still, I would be reluctant to put a hollow grind on a low angle chisel in the 20 degree range, Japanese or not. Chipping can occur for several reasons (brittleness of the harder steel being primary), one of which is lack of support for the edge. For most use, it won't take a large flat spot (achieved by following up the Tormek with a flat abrasive system) to achieve sufficient butressing of the edge.

Question#2: I've recently been getting into carving, and have a number of gouges, including straight, spoon, and backbent. Would the Tormek be a good choice for these?

With the appropriate additional Tormek jigs, the Tormek is superb for these purposes. The jigs will help you achieve a consistent, precision grind of those complex shape. I find the slow speed water cooling to be most helpful in preventing overheating of some of the smaller, thinner areas of complexly shaped tools.

Question#3: I have a bunch of expensive but very dull kitchen knives. Anyone have experience with this? Learning curve?

Get at least the smaller knife jig, read the manual, it's a piece of cake. I do all our Wusthof kitchen knives about one a year on the Tormek. Put a black magic marker edge on the knives for your first couple of tries so that you get a sense of how to evenly follow the longitudinal profile of the blade

Question#4: I went to a woodworking class where the instructor used the Tormek for putting the primary bevel on chisels, but finished with waterstones by hand, to put the keenest edge on the tools. How does this compare with how you use your Tormek?

For turning tools, the edge right off the Tormek is sufficient (and far better than off a dry grinder), but for everything else, you will want to follow up with at least one size of flat waterstone or abrasive paper. I think, a 6000 or 8000 waterstone will do the job just fine for most tools, for most tasks. Again, this helps flatten the area behind the edge slightly too, thus improving buttressing.

Re: Tormek for japanese chisels and carving tools?

Wiley Horne--Glendora CA

>Hi Todd,

Harrelson at Hiraide hollow grinds his Japanese blades on a Tormek, so you might check directly with him for details.

I have in the past few months begun hollow grinding blades, and regret that I did not begin a lot sooner. I use a good many Japanese tools, and have begun to hollow grind them as well as western blades. I am grinding on a 6", 1750-rpm Baldor. One thing I can tell you from experience--you won't remove enough metal to weaken the blade. For example, I just got through chopping 36 mortises with a 6mm blue steel Miyanaga chisel (from JWW) that I hollow ground. I would say the effective cutting angle was 27-28 degrees, since the honing angle was a little steeper than the grind angle. I don't use the typewriter method of chopping mortises, i.e., take off a shallow layer, then another shallow layer, etc. I drive the chisel in as far as a 13-oz steel hammer will drive it in two sharp licks--about 5/8" to 11/16" in curly birch. Then the same thing from the other direction, in order to remove a deep plug from the middle of the mortise. I'm getting afield, but this chisel was seeing hard duty, both in being struck hard, and in levering out lots of chips from the bottom of these mortises. Absolutely no chipping at any time. Once you do it--you'll see why: hollow-grinding just doesn't remove very much metal, and especially not with a 10-inch wheel.

I also have hollow ground an Ishida 65mm white steel plane blade (in my Japanese 15-1/2" jack plane). This thing sees hard duty for stock removal, and I am very happy about the results. It just makes sharpening so much faster, and I'm not tempted to keep steepening the bevel and sharpening away the clearance angle.

I have experienced no downside to hollow grinding Japanese blades, and am working my way through them all. In one of Krenov's books, he describes hollow grinding Japanese chisels. And for specific experience on Tormek, call Harrelson.

Wiley

Re: Tormek for japanese chisels and carving tools?

Don Thompson - Cutler Ridge, Florida

>#3: KITCHEN KNIVES

My Tormek works well for this. It takes a little practice to set the various length knives in the knife holder (which you must buy separately) correctly, so that you will get a consistent bevel.

#4: FINAL HONING

The Tormek by itself will get chisels and plane blades sharp, but not very sharp. The grinding wheel, when conditioned with the grading tool, is only equivalent to a 1000 grit stone. Many find that to be a starting point for sharpening, not a finish. You do have the leather stropping wheel, but it does not remove the scratches from the 1000 grit. If you look at the edge under a microscope, you will observe brightly polished 1000-grit scratches remaining.

Absent any other machinery, you will probably want to go from the Tormek to water stone(s), if you like your chisels and plane blades really sharp.

Follow-up question on Tormek

Todd from San Jose

>Thanks to all for your knowledge and guidance. I've got one more question...

You confirmed my suspicion that it'd be best to follow the Tormek with my fine waterstones. Until now, I've been using a honing guide on my waterstones to set the angle, because I've found it difficult to steadily hold the chisel or iron at a constant secondary bevel angle. But with the additional stability a hollow-grind gives, it seems it'll be a lot easier to free-hand sharpen on waterstones and not round the cutting edge. I'd like to migrate to this to eliminate the time it takes to set up the honing guide. So, Tormek owners, do you free-hand or use a guide on waterstones?

much cheaper solution

bill tindall

>The primary bevel can be successfully done with an ordinary 3600 rpm bench grinder if you have the proper wheel. Such a wheel will cost $15-$35. One can grind right to the edge of these tools without burning. You need a very soft, for example H, wheel with a friable grit (pink or white) and preferably an open pore structure. Such wheels are available at places that sell to machine shops for surface grinders. I will have an Article submitted soon dealing with wheel selection and sources.

The slight hollow grind then becomes an advantage when honing because so little metal needs to be removed.

I know a professional carver and he never grinds his tools. They are only honed as needed with some grit on leather.

No grinders necessary. *LINK*

Bob Smalser, Seabeck, WA

>Even a Tormek. Any flavor of grinding removes several fold the steel required for a good edge.

Unless you drop those chisels on a concrete floor and chip them, there is no reason to ever use grinder on them.

Simply practice your hand honing on lesser tools until you get it down pat.


Basic Sharpening

Re: Tormek for japanese chisels and carving tools?

Gene C.

>Hi Wiley,

What kind of jig are you using for grinding your chisels? Thanks in advance....

Gene

Re: Tormek for japanese chisels and carving tools?

Wiley Horne--Glendora CA

>Gene,

I freehand chisels and plane blades, resting my hands on the toolrest built into the Baldor grinder. I've heard good things about the One Way (Wolverine) system, and of course Veritas always has good gear

Couple of words of explanation. I don't grind all the way to the blade edge. I grind to about 1/32" of the edge, and sharpen on stones from there. So don't need total precision. But you can grind an even hollow by hand, if you take it slow.

I go slow so the blade doesn't get anywhere near annealing hot. Pass the blade side to side across the grindstone, across and then back, with very light pressure, taking off very little at each pass. The blade never gets more than a little warm to the touch, and I still stick it in a cup of water after each pass for good measure. Family would starve if I did this for a living. You do have to be extra careful with narrow chisels, like 1/8", cause there's no heat sink to speak of, and you can blue the skin of one fast if you get overconfident (DAMHIKT).

Wiley

Thanks Wiley, I'll work on it

Gene C.

>

Re: Follow-up question on Tormek

Jeff Mackay

>Todd,

I've been using the Tormeck for about a year. I grind Japanese chisels with it, with no problems. I do follow up with fine water stones (1000, 5000, 8000), and I use a jig. Not because I have to, just because I always wind up rounding edges when I try sharpening freehand.

I find the the "small tool" jig works best for carving gouges. And it's cheap.

For knives, the small knife jig works fine, even for big kitchen knives. No need to buy the small and the large. I sharpen knives about once a year. And yesterday, with two turkeys to carve, was prime time. It's almost a pleasure to carve a turkey with a sharp knife, and the Tormek gives you sharp knives in minutes.

Realize that you can spend as much on jigs as you do on the machine itself. So I'd recommend starting out with the diamond truing tool, the standard chisel/plane blade jig, the small knife jig, the small tool jig for carving gouges, and if you turn, the tool rest for roughing gouges & scrapers. You'll probably also want the outboard profile strop for carving gouges.

It adds up pretty quickly, but if you like working with sharp tools, don't like sharpening, and have deep pockets, it works well.

Jeff

Re: Tormek for japanese chisels and carving tools?

david charlesworth

>Todd,

We have been using a Tormek to grind Japanese bench chisels for well over 15 years. I never grind right to the edge unless there is a major chip. In fact we almost never seem to chip them due to using steeper honing angles than the 27 degrees, which many are supplied with.

I hone the business end at 35 degrees for chopping chisels, 30 degrees for paring chisels and would go to 37 or 40 degrees for mortice chisels.

We work hardwood all the time and I am prepared to adjust honing angles according to the density of the wood being worked.

I grind at lower angles and expect to get at least seven re sharpenings between grindings.

David Charlesworth

Kitchen knives on Tormek

jimreed@marietta

>I sharpen SWMBOs knives on the Tormek freehand. They require very little grinding when compared to chisels and plane blades. I just swipe them across the wheel and then finish up using SS sandpaper method on tile. Gather up all the knives and start with the inexpensive ones. You should quickly develop a feel and be able to sharpen a knife in less than a minute.