How to sharpen gouge? *LINK*

Re: How to sharpen gouge?

Bob Smalser, Seabeck, WA

>Easy as pie.

Freehand it at the proper, matching bevel angle to and fro (not side to side) on your paper.

Then wrap some paper around a matching hardwood dowel and do the inside surface.

Then strop on your buffer grinder's stitched muslin wheel using green rouge and matching the bevel angles during stropping.

Re: How to sharpen gouge?

William R. Duffield on the Cohansey

>The same way you get to carnagiehall:^) By hand and by eye, checking your progress as you work. Unlike a jigged plane blade or chisel, which can be moved bidirectionally across the paper, it only takes one small "oops" to rip your paper to shreds if you push it. Just work it on the pull stroke. Also, to make sure you don't put any flat spots on the edge, rotate it with one hand, while controlling the angle with the other, as you pull it across the paper.

Finally, you are going to have to take the wire edge off the back (inside) surface of the blade. The easiest way to do this is with a small piece of your final grit paper wrapped around the end of whichever finger fits the curve. Gluing the paper to a dowel doesn't work well on bent gouges. Be careful not to overwork this surface, since that will only increase your effective cutting angle without increasing your sharpness, requiring more effort to push the blade though the wood.

Re: How to sharpen gouge?

Denny

>Thanks for the replies. Sharpening without some sort of guide feels like riding a bike without training wheels for the first time. (Of course, so does carving by hand instead of using a router...)

Denny

Re: How to sharpen gouge?

Alan Hamilton

>Denny,

Whatever else it is, sharpening a gouge is not easy as pie. I don't need to sharpen often enough to keep my freehand skills good enough to sharpen chisels and plane irons, and certainly not my only occasionally used gouges. But I have found ways that make it possible for me to get a good-enough edge.

I lightly clamp a gouge with the edge hanging off the side of the bench. I set a sliding bevel to the bevel angle and lay it beside the tool. When I take the stone to the tool, I try to match the angle of the sliding bevel; as I work around the gouge, I tip the sliding bevel to give me a visual reference of the proper angle, then put both hands on the stone. I stop often, every few strokes, and check the edge--if it's off, I haven't yet done too much damage. It takes a good while doing it this way, but it's better than any alternative I've found.

As a last resort, there is a product sold that advertises it's for sharpening gouges and the like. I don't know if it works.

If you come up with a better way, please tell me about it. I'll try just about anything--once.

Alan

Re: How to sharpen gouge?

Bob Hackett

>I also find it easier to bring the stone to the gouge.

It`s easier in two respects,easier for me to get good results and easier to cut at least one finger every time I do it,unfortunately.

I wonder if one of those jigs that look like an oarlock would work,I`m running out of bandaids.

Mainely,Bob

Re: How to sharpen gouge? *LINK*

Bob Smalser, Seabeck, WA

>If there's a simple jig that'll do gouges, I haven't found one....and the spendy ones are slow as molasses.

Freehand sharpening isn't the bear so many folks make it out to be. The problem is usually simply the height of your stones. Get them up to the height of your belt buckle and get them secure. That way your torso won't interfere with your elbows, causing changing angles and rocker.

That's three inches higher than the height of my kitchen cabinets, let alone the height of most work benches.

You are gonna have to learn to freehand anyway, if you are gonna save your stones from premature hollowing or sharpen somewhere on a remote job site, so your gouges are as good a place to start as any.

Watch your flats and adjust your angle as I describe in the tutorial below.

Many want to sharpen gouges from side to side....and I've seen many ship carvers do that in the field when not at their benches....but I believe it's a better practice to sharpen fore and aft, making those minute scratches perpendicular to the line of stress for longer wear.


Basic Sharpening

Re: How to sharpen gouge? *LINK*

joel

>While I ama fan or free hand sharpening

there is a simple jig for gouges - it works like a charm and I am amazed it wasn't invented sooner.


Oar Sharpener

Interesting...

Bob Smalser, Seabeck, WA

>...hadn't seen that one.

Looks like it's used side to side, tho....not my preference, but others do it that way.

Thanks.

Re: Interesting...

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>Joel,

I also find it interesting, but I'm going to have to think long and hard about conic geometry. I don't think it is a general solution that allows anyone to achieve mindless sharpening of any gouge, but it sure looks like it can reduce the number of things you have to think about at the same time.

Bob,

Re, Side to side vs. Front to back: It looks like you should be able to push the gouge and jig in any direction or combination of directions that pleases you :^) I agree that side to side is not good, because the scratches parallel to the edge undermine its strength. OTOH, working in the diametrically opposed direction, one could easily end up with a faceted edge, instead of a smooth curve. I prefer to work front to back with a bit of a twist, In this manner, the scratch pattern is at maybe 60� to 80� instead of 90� to the face, so the scratches do not weaken the edge, and the edge retains a more or less smooth curve. This jig doesn't prevent that. Still, a few long strokes beat lots of short strokes any day, and this setup is definitely disadvantaged in that respect. (In other words, consistently using the whole length of the stone should get a better edge quicker than a jig that requires limited travel across the stone.)

Of course, the angles and smoothness still depend totally on the sharpener's skill, or the amount of time he wants to expend getting it just right. This jig, at least, should make it easier to get a consistent bevel angle.

Still, gouges are made in many different sweeps, and this jig only has one sweep, so one still needs a good deal of skill and stopping to check one's progress to get both the shape right and the edge refined at the same time.

Re: Interesting...

joel

>First of all the sweep of the gouge doesn't matter much - the reason is that the gouge only contacts the stone at one point as does the guide. so when you rock the jig during sharpening you are always bearing on two points regarless of the sweep.

Angle of hone is of course dependant on where you clamp the jig on the tool.

It also works for power sharpening - great for flat grinders. just rock the tool with the guide on the rest and the bevel on the rotating disk, or stone, or belt.

Re: Interesting...

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>It seems like it should be useful for turning gouges, as well, right?

No freehanding here,think JIGS!

Bob Hackett

>The reason I`m pushing this is that,as you`ve read,I only really have one fully functioning hand and that is my non-dominant hand.I used to freehand sharpen alot but those days are over,period,It`s just not an option.

Sharpening straight chisels is a challenge,even with a jig so you can see where I`m coming from in relation to gouges.I am capable of guiding with my right hand and that`s it,no grasping.Right now my brother sharpens my gouges for me and I touch them up using my gouge in vice technique.

Jigs,either shop made or manufactured are the only thing that allows me to continue sharpening and WWing.I like to think that fate brought Cecil and I together as I saw what he could do with only one hand(he lost all the fingers on one hand to a jointer leaving only his thumb).I`ve used alot of the tricks I saw worked for him but he power sharpened everything using belt sanders and jigs.

I`d like to get back to the Zen of steel on stone and jigs are the only way I can do that for at least a year so how about helping a fella out here.If your right hand went dead tomorrow how would you press on?

As a starter example,I use a hardwood sharpening stick that has a large handle at a right angle to the stick and a velcro strap for around my arm to fix the plane blades and chisels to for flattening the backs.Double stick tape or hot glue holds the blade to the stick.The pressure comes from the heel of my hand and my forearm rather than gripping and pressing down.

Mainely,Bob

Turning gouges

Bob Hackett

>You must really be over the top about honing turning tools,Sir William.I get enough flack just using my pocket hone.

Even with one hand I can still use a fine diamond hone to touch up my tools at the lathe.The bevels on all but my roughing gouge are far wider than any chisel I own except maybe my slick,plenty of registration for the hone there.I use the DMT folding hone as it keeps my fingers further away from the edge.As our friends down under say"It works a treat".

I also have most of my gouges in shot filled hollow handles.The gouge shank is held by a setscrew and I take them out of the handle to grind(using the Wolverine system)much easier to handle and control that way.

Mainely,Bob

Re: Interesting...

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>Bob, I wish I could help, but I'm not much of a jig person. I even sharpen my turning tools freehand, mainly because I'm too cheap to buy a fancy sharpening system. I'm seriously considering trying out joel's jig, but I'm not sure I'm coordinated enough to use it one handed. I've also been successful clamping a gouge in the vise and bringing the stone to it. A patternmaker's vise is useful for this, but you would probably also have difficulty adjusting the turn and tilt mechansims of one of those with just one hand. To change the subject, have you looked at Lee-Valley's Tucker patternmakers vise? It has a quick release mechanism that can be operated via a foot pedal. It's a lot of bucks, but it might be helpful. Also, the Workbench Book shows a patternmaker's vise modified to open and close with a hydraulic cylinder, actuated with a foot switch.

Off on another tangent, do you use quick-grip clamps? I find them very useful when I don't have an extra free hand, as they can be operated one handed. They're not strong enough for glue-ups with yellow glue, but can help hold things in place for you.

BTW, my comments, above, were directed to the Pacific Northwet Bob, regarding the need to slide the Oar jig on a surface next to the stone.

Working with one hand tied behind my back(long)

Bob Hackett

>William,The patternmakers vices you saw I believe were in use at Thomas Moser`s facility and those are air cylinders.The truck wheels they welded up for bases leave something to be desired though.I saw them at work and they`re a useful and handy(G) tool I`ll be making use of in the future.I already have the cylinders.

Right now I use one of those imported metalworking vices that swivel 360 deg in two planes.It`s bolted to a pedestal that`s adjustable for height and will also accept other holding devices and my grinder if needed.I originally designed the pedestal to hold Harley engines and transmissions while I was working as a mechanic so it`s very versatile.I`ve used this and vice and a Zylyss both with specialized jaws to hold just about everything I need.

I understand and agree that freehand sharpening is a skill that makes life easier if you master it and encourage those who can to do so.I also feel that there are folks who,for whatever reason,can`t do it and we should accept that and look for ways to help them within thier present skill set.I`m hoping that the approaches I`ve been forced into will help others till they can aquire the skills needed to freehand.I,myself,look forward to the day I can once again go back to freehanding things like twist drills and plane irons or chainsaws.Hell,it`d be a pleasure to be able to just USE a chainsaw!(my wife does that now).

The point I`m trying to make is that we all we need to think about what may work for the person asking the question not what we personally are capable of.I know I`m one of the prime offenders in this area and have been known to veer off topic with no provocation but his thread just turned the light on for me.I found myself saying"I know all that and understand it.Hell,I used to do it but that`s of absolutely no use to me now" as I read thru Bob`s sharpening tutorial.

The light that went on was,maybe that`s how alot of other folks with 10 thumbs feel.

On the rifle range I could consistantly take a soldier`s weapon and shoot a shot group to standard from a standing position and often did just that to demonstrate that there was nothing wrong with that weapon.It proved a point but did nothing to help that soldier become a better shooter.Until I understood that individual`s needs and shortfalls they would never progress past being just another dusty,sweaty,frustrated person who failed to meet the standards wondering how the hell they came to this and thinking they`d never get it right.

Success is the best motivator I`ve ever come across.Show someone how to be successful at even a small thing and see how quickly they want to move on to conquer the next.

It makes no difference if YOU can hit the X at 500 meters each and every time.What matters is what kind of training wheels are you going to set under this first time shooter so he can at least group at 25 meters and move on to the next phase.

Hope this wasn`t too boring,thanks for listening.Switch off,lights out for awhile.

Mainely,Bob

Re: Working with one hand tied behind my back(long

Greg Sloop, Portland Oregon

>No advice here, at least not sharpening...

But I thought I'd say I truely liked your thoughts about finding a way to help those less skilled by *meeting* them at their skill level, rather than just talking louder, saying the same thing over again, and hoping they get it this time.

Teaching invloves more than just giving information. It's finding a way to motivate, "lowering" the teacher to the students level, and helping them learn.

Too often, I think we become frustrated because we're giving all the technical info, but we think the hopless sobs are just not getting it. We think it's a student's fault, not the teacher. (And sometimes it is.) But often, it takes a better teacher.

Teaching isn't just imparting technical skills. It's finding a way to put ones self in the students place.

Thanks,

Greg

Re: Retraining handedness

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Bob, when I was about 6 my cousin broke her arm for the second or third time. I figured, as kids do, that this was the norm. Looking forward, when I broke my arm I didn't want to miss school or any other stuff that was fun (of course, I hadn't even started school in those days without kindergarden); so I decided to train my left hand to write, etc. It was actually pretty easy. Of course, a funny unintended consequence is that I can no longer deal cards right handed; but the left hand took over some stuff that leaves the right hand free for more important things.

So, take heart. I hope your right arm heals, but I'll assume you're retraining your left hand.

Pam

Re: Working with one hand tied behind my back(long

Dan Donaldson

>Good points. I would also say that it sometimes helps to try and find out how the person you are trying to teach learns. I tutor in an adult education math lab as a volunteer, and the old saying that there is more than one way to do that fits in. Some eople learn visually, some audibly, and some in other ways. If someone does not seem to be getting it (MEGO, mine eyes glaze over syndrome;-)), then try to find another way to show them in a way that makes sense to them, not necessarily to you;-) I can usually find some way to explain stuff so that it makes sense to the student.

"Flipping the switch"...

Bob Hackett

>is what another instructor I worked with called it.His analogy was that everyone is wired differently and we need to keep trying different things till we "Flip the switch".It is immediately apparent when you make the connection,the eyes light up and there`s a noticable change in the expression.

I had a soldier who had been trying for 2 months to qualify with the weapon it was the only thing keeping her from graduating.I started coaching back at grouping and zeroing,pulling out all the tricks till I found what flipped the switch at each step and not allowing any advancement till the standard was successfully met without assistance.That soldier ran up and hugged me when she found out "we" were a first time go at the qualification range.

She spent the rest of the afternoon doing pushups(putting hands on a DI is a BIG no-no).The smile never left her face.

Mainely,Bob

OT: Marksmanship

Don Thompson - Cutler Ridge, Florida

>It sounds like my roommate (purely platonic) of 24 years ago needed an instructor like you. She flunked out of police training because they could not teach her to shoot straight.

You REALLY would have liked a hug from her. ;-)