Introduction and Blade Flattening question

Re: Introduction and Blade Flattening question

David Miller from Iowa

>Welcome Jake -

The good news is that you have come to the right place. The bad news is that we all sharpen differently and you have opened up a can of worms for which many of just sit and wait:)

I'd encourage you to search the archives and read the extensive dialogue we have on this topic.

However, as a brief reply on back flattening, just get it reasonably flat - don't obsess, then grind the front bevel. The trick, for me at least, is in the micro bevels. You need a secondary bevel on the main bevel, and I usually touch up the back with another slight back bevel that takes away any rounding.

You'll find Garret Hack's Handplane book indispensable, and if you search this board for "the ruler trick" (some of us don't approve, but I do) you may find a gem (or at least a germ of an idea).

Sharpening is one of those zen things that when you have it all figured out, someone comes along with a sharper iron, and you have to go on the quest again.

That's about as vague as I can be - read what the others have to say and see what works for you.

Keep posting and give us updates on your revelations.

Regards, David

Re: Introduction and Blade Flattening question

John Aniano in NJ

>Jake,

How thick is the plate glass you are using? Most suggest using 3/8" or 1/2" thick float glass if you can get your hands on it. Also, how are you holding the paper to the glass? Using an adhesive such as the 3M spray stuff or just laying it down dry? It has to be solidly in place or it can bunch up and round the edge.

Now, I'm no expert, but if I'm sharpening with paper, I can usually get away with a scary-sharp grit series of 80 or 120, 400 and 600 SiC grit. I then go to an 800 grit King water stone and then a 4000 grit King water stone. I flatten the water stones while dry using 80 grit SiC paper on 1/2" thick glass. The SiC paper is a self-adhesive paper sold at Home Depot (or similar) for power sanding wood floors.

As for rounding the edge, look to the final application as to whether you really need an absolutely flat back. For plane blades, and I don't care who says otherwise, it is my opinion that a bit of rounding on the "flat" side really won't cause a problem with actual use. Rounding on the back does make the sharpening process more difficult since it is harder to determine when it is really sharp. By that I mean, if you can get the end 1/4" or so really flat and the blade is fully flat on the sharpening surface, you don't have to think about that side at all. And once it is flat, you don't have to fuss with it again in the future (unless the edge gets chipped, etc.).

As to the issue of pressure while flattening, I once got a finger slightly burned from the friction between a blade and 80 grit paper. It was a narrow plough plane blade and I guess the heat just built up. I doubt that too much pressure is bad unless it deforms the glass plate, which can happen if it is too thin.

Although I use scary-sharp to do the backs of moulding plane and other old tool blades, I usually use a Tormek to sharpen most all of my tools such as regular (bench) plane blades, chisels and the like. If I need better (read that as a "really flat" edge for the bowmaking work I do) I'll go from the Tormek hollow grind to a Norton fine India stone that I glazed by rubbing it on a ~600 grit diamond stone (EzLap). The glazed India stone (aluminum oxide) cuts very slowly and leaves a good edge. Alternatively, a fine Arkansas stone would also work.

With all that said, I try not to spend too much time sharpening as it takes time from actually doing work! I once watched Frank Klausz sharpen a chisel from grindstone to finished cutting edge in about 2-3 minutes, and all he used were ~1000 and 6000 grit water stones. He had, of course, already flattened the chisel back to his satisfaction, and did not mention to us how he did it.

Hope this helps,

John

Flat Backs on Chisels

Steve Elliott

>I'm a recent convert to back bevels for plane blades, but I believe they're not a good idea for chisels. The back of the chisel is a guiding surface that allows the chisel to cut in a straight line. With a back bevel, the chisel wants to climb as it cuts.

My experience with sandpaper sharpening has been that it always rounds the edges at least a little. That's why I prefer waterstones, and I flatten the stones every time I sharpen. It doesn't take long, and it means that each time I use the finishing stone to take the wire edge off the blade back, the whole back touches the stone. If the edge is rounded at all, it won't take off the wire edge.

My best suggestion for not rounding the edges while flattening the back is to move the chisel parallel to its long axis. Moving it sideways always tends to take more steel off of the leading edge, which means that the chisel back will end up slightly rounded.

With just a little practice, you'll make lots of progress. Good luck.

Another possibility

Dan Donaldson

>There are several people here that are not far from Windsor at all. Perhaps you could make arrangements some weekend to visit someone and get a bit of first hand instruction or analysis.

The main thing is to get the blades sharp enough to cut what you are trying to cut. The finess will come. There are levels of sharpness, with diminishing returns. You can get 90% of the way to "perfection" pretty fast, and that is probably good enough to get you started. I have a couple of tools that I am anal about sharpening to a mirror finish etc., but for most, they work fine for me at a lesser level of perfection. If it works, I use it. I would rather cut wood than sharpen most of the time ;-)

Hello Jake...

Christopher Fitch @ Memphis

>glad to have you on...

I'm only removed from your state by about 2.5 years. I started woodworking as a hobby and it's one I enjoy.

Sharpening is a complex and somtimes contentious subject. However, it's perhaps one of the most important aspects of woodworking.

Here's some links that might give you some info:

Sharpening and Testing Plane Irons

Getting an Edge with Waterstones, Oilstones, and Sandpaper

A Guide to Honing and Sharpening

The D&S Scary Sharp(TM) System

Two excellent books are:

The original sharpening bible:

The Complete Guide to Sharpening by Leonard Lee

And the newly written:

Complete Illustrated Guide to Sharpening by Thomas Lie-Nielsen

Those are some sources. Also, issue #172 of Fine Woodworking contains an article by David Charlesworth on tuning a handplane.

In addition to the Garrett Hack book mentioned above, I *HIGHLY* recommended the old standby, Planecraft, an old book from Record tools that discusses many many planes and their usage.

I started with sandpaper and eventually moved to Norton Waterstones. If you are worried about messing the blades on your chisels and planes, you can always buy a super-cheap chisel at Lowe's or Home Depot and just practice on it and do the same to a cheap plane blade.

Just keep at it.. it just takes some patience.

Good luck!

Wow

David Miller from Iowa

>Christopher - that is a pretty thorough post. Is there a way we can save that and have it automatically reply when anyone uses sharpening in their subject?

Nice, David

Here's some more...

Christopher Fitch @ Memphis

>Here's some more:

SHARPENING BLADES - Has some nice pictures...

Tuning A Hand Plane

HAND PLANES 101 - Lots of info here

Basic Sharpening Tutorial by our very own Bob Smalser

ndex of Fossil-Fuel-Friendly Woodworking Knowledge - Lots of links

I may post some more here in a bit...

Here's a thought.. Guides...

Christopher Fitch @ Memphis

>>Is there a way we can save that and have it automatically reply when anyone uses sharpening in their subject?

Fine by me...

I always wondered why we don't have a guides and resources page different from the articles. I know Ellis has his wonderful idea about the online streaming and videos. However, I was thinking more of a set of pages similar to my initial post, each dealing with a certain area such as sharpening.

Each page could be further broken down into sections such as:

- General comments? (not sure about this)

- Woodcentral articles

- Woodcenrtal Videos(If Ellis' idea takes off)

- External Web Resources

- Recommended Books

- Videos/DVDs

A number of these could be setup and added to over time. It's not a FAQ but a place to point someone to as a reference guide for further information.

just a thought

Re: Introduction and Blade Flattening question

Jake J. (Windsor, Ontario)

>Thanks David,

I'm more than happy to use the ruler trick on the plane blandes, but I'm not sure I would do that with the chisels.

I'll look for 'back' or 'blade' and 'flattening' in the archive to see what pops up.

I have read the Handplane book and believe I can set up a plane to level the top, but first I have to make some big mortise and tennon joints for the base and need to work on my chisels.

Jake.

Re: Another possibility

Jake J. (Windsor, Ontario)

>Hi Dan,

I don't see myself getting to the point of obsession with blade back flatting, yet. I just don't want to mess up my newer tools and do something that will make it harder(or impossible) to fix once I have better skills.

At the moment

Dan Donaldson

>Time will probably not permit something exactly like what you are suggesting (although I think it is an excellent idea), but for the time being, if you or someone would like to set it up as an article (it could be just like you did in your note with the links etc.), I would be happy to put it up. If we get more info or other comments later, If someone will collect them, I could update the page periodically.

There is a search engine on the articles page and if we put the right keywords in it, the search should find it.

I do know that Ellis is looking at making the articles page easier to navigate, and maybe something like this can be included as a catagory. (or maybe just in the jigs, tips, and fixtures, at least for now.)

Re: Introduction and Blade Flattening question

Jake J. (Windsor, Ontario)

>Hi John,

I'm using 3/8" plate glass resting on a 3'x3' sheet of 3/4" melamine. I use either PSA backed paper or adhesive spray. I'm shying away from the paper method because of the residue build up when you peel the old paper off the glass. It's a PITA to clean off. What size pieces do you use when you flatten a blade?

Re: Introduction and Blade Flattening question

John Aniano in NJ

>Jake,

I have 3 pieces of 1/2" thick glass, two ~8"x12" and one much longer ~12"x30". I use the long one only for truing large planes which I've done only once. The other pieces have coarse ~80 grit and the fine ~220 grit SiC paper glued to the fronts and backs of each piece. I use these for flattening blade backs. I've replaced the SiC paper only once, and you are correct, you have to get out the Goof-Off solvent to get the glass clean after scraping off the paper residue!

Over and out,

John

Re: Flat Backs on Chisels

Jake J. (Windsor, Ontario)

>Hi Steve,

I've considered using waterstones instead of paper, but am reluctant unless I'm sure it will help me out (I would need to buy a few more, and they are not cheap). The idea that there is more steel removal on leading edge makes sense to me. If I were to push the chisel along its long axis, I would be scared of lifting it up and back beveling the edge, which would be even more work to fix. I'll try it though to see if I can make it work.

Jake.

Re: Hello Jake...

Jake J. (Windsor, Ontario)

>Hi Christopher,

Those are great links, I've got bookmarks on most of them already. I have the sharpening book by L. Lee and it helped me get started with the combination waterstone I have. I was going to wait for more reviews on the book by T. Lie-Nielson unless someone says there is an awesome section on blade back preparation.

Most of what I read discusses the bevel edge and micro-bevel. There is not much advice on preparing the back, which means IMHO that it's real easy and I haven't practiced enough, or I'm doing something wrong. From what I've read in this thread already, it seems like the sandpaper has some effect on my rounding problem. Maybe I will look into the sharpening course at the LV in London.

Waterstones & Technique

Steve Elliott

>For my first 20 years of woodworking I used two waterstones, an 800x and a 6000x finishing stone. That's a big jump, but it just means extra time on the fine stone.

When flattening the back of a chisel, I actually hold the chisel diagonally so that the handle is to the side of the stone. That way I can move the chisel along the full length of the stone. For more even wear I alternate which side the handle is on.

Re: Flattening Backs

Jim Crammond in Monroe, Mi

>Jake,

I think you are encountering the main drawback of using sandpaper to sharpen. I used this method for a number of years and experienced the same problem. In my opinion, most of the round over is occurring at the lower grit sizes but it is not noticable until you are in the final honing and polishing stages. I first noticed this as a problem when taking some wood working classes. I had sharpened my tools to the best of my ability before the classes using sandpaper and when re-sharpening the blades on the waterstones or oilstones provided by the school, the roundover was noticeable.

First off, don't worry that you are ruining any tools or can't work with tools that are not perfectly sharpened. In most cases sharpening is a process that is perfected over a period of time and it has a significant learning curve. There are probably as many different sharpening techniques as there are woodworkers, so pick one that seems to work for you and stick with it. Some of the softer woods, pine and poplar for example, are much more tolerant of tools that are not perfectly sharp than birdseye maple or some exotics. To me the fun part of this hobby is working with wood, so don't spend too much time initially just sharpening, it can be frustrating.

If the backs of your tools are flat except for 1/32" or 1/16" at the edge(don't worry about the roundover on the sides), you have three options. You could grind off the roundover at the edge, use the ruler trick that others have spoken about or you could ignore the roundover for now. Flip the iron over and sharpen the bevel. This should not take too long, just a couple of swipes at each grit. The important thing is to produce a small burr at the edge. To determine if there is a burr, pull a finger or your thumb over the edge perpendicular to the edge(don't run any flesh parallel to the edge or you will cut yourself) from the back. If you have abraided the arris of the bevel and back, there will be a small burr. If there is no burr, go back to the bevel side and sharpen some more. If there is a burr, flip the iron over and touch up the back using your 1500 or so paper. If that doesn't take off the burr, the back is not truly flat, you can use the ruler trick or grind the bevel back just a bit. Resist temptation to go back to a coarser grit, you'll put the roundover back. Once you have eliminated the burr, go to the next grit.

By the way, I changed to oilstones about two years ago, they are slower but I don't have any problems keeping them flat. I picked most of my stones up at fleamarkets and garage sale for a dollar or so apiece. Whatever you do, try not get frustrated, we all went through the same things and the purpose of this is to enjoy yourself.

Jim

Re: Introduction and Blade Flattening question

Don Thompson - Cutler Ridge, Florida

>Hello Jake,

Welcome to the forum. Here is a link to a thread with a discussion about blade back flattening.

If you decide to get some additional waterstone, remember that you do not have to get them all at once. The smaller jumps just make it quicker.

Re: Introduction and Blade Flattening question

Norman (Metcalfe, Ont.)

>Hello Jake,

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned already, but you will need to periodically lap or flatten your waterstones. They could be "saddled" or dished in either plane causing your roundover problem.

It is best to check them for squareness along their length and width with a machinists square.

Yuo can lap the watersotnes on a piece of plate glass with lapping 90X grit.

Norman

Sharp enough test

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Hi Jake,

Over the years, I've found I've over sharpened my tools. Over sharpening is a big waste of time. The tool cuts great for exactly 5 minutes!

So here's the test I use now:

For a tool that gets driven with a mallet (or a scrub plane- maybe a jack plane), its sharp enough when it can cleanly slice a piece of copy machine paper. As you draw the blade across the paper, you will hear if there are rough spots. The edge isn't really good enough if the paper tears as you draw the blade across.

For a tool that you push, it must cleanly slice the paper without "sawing". Pushing stright onto the edge of the paper should slice it.

In my opinion, anything beyond that is fruitless.

One more thing: I'm going to speak for many others here when I say how impressed I am with your thoughtful question. You're a smart guy. You are absolutely right to think that you can ruin a tool while you are learning to sharpen.

I'm guessing you've already determined that the greatest damage you can do to your tools is drawing the hardness through improper grinding. I've ruined more than my share of tools that way.

Good question. Nice to meet you.

Adam Cherubini

Well said. back to work

Victor Parisian - Houston

>

Re: Introduction and Blade Flattening question

Jake J. (Windsor, Ontario)

>Hi All,

Thanks for all of the thoughtful advice and kind words, it really helps to re-enforce that I'm on the right track.

I'm going to use my waterstones more and look into picking up a course one to speed up the flattening work(I've got some 3/8" glass and 90 grit SiC powder to keep the stones flat).

Now it's on to my workbench.

Thanks again, Jake.

Re: excellent!

paul womack

>...two additions.

Holding plane blades for flattening is difficult (i.e. painful on the fingers).

I recommend taking a small piece of lath, say 2 1/2" long, 1/2" deep, 3/8" thick, and making an ultra-wide 2" wide, 3/32" deep dado in it. This then straddles and holds the plane blade, allowing more work to be done. It also allow you to concentrate work in one place on the blade, if you need to.

I would also advise using a magnet to remove the waste metal, and to do so frequently. Much more effective than brushing, and quieter than vacuuming.

BugBear

Nice tip!!!

Gerry Doll

>