WoodCentral Forums

Est. 1998 — 27 years of woodworking knowledge

Son of Stan - a review *LINK*

Posts

Son of Stan - a review *LINK*

#1

Son of Stan - a review *LINK*

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>I am a recent convert to bevel up planes. Not so much as a LA plane for the shooting board, but as a HA plane for the gnarly Australian timbers with which I love to work.

I have just placed a recently completed article about the potential of bevel up planes on a new web site - the only way I knew to get the info to this site - it is very long with many pics. Garrett has said he will put it in the WC article library, but this will take a little while yet.

The bevel up planes reviewed here include my Stanley #62, a LV LA Jack that Rob Lee sent to me (for this purpose), and a few other planes used for comparison, including my HNT Gordon Try Plane and a LV LA Smoother I recently purchased.

The link to the article is below.

I hope you find it interesting.

Regards from Perth

Derek


img

Son of Stan article

Re: Son of Stan - a review *LINK*

#2

Re: Son of Stan - a review

Robin Frierson

>Very nice article Dereck. I too have become a convert of using bevel up planes. The LV 62 1/2 is indeed a real performer. I have found, like you, that using it with a 50deg beveled iron will outperform my traditional smoothers and some very expensive infills.

But I want more. I want a heavier bevel up smoother, a low angle # 4 1/2 if you will, something around 5- 5 1/2lbs and a 2 1/4in blade. It sure would be nice if Rob Lee would redesign his LA smoother to accomadate the same blade as the # 62 1/2, and make it a touch heavier at the same time.

Soon LN will release an adjustable mouth design on their low angle jointer, the # 7 1/2, should be another great bevel up plane. Rob has also indicated they are considering a low angle jointer too. And did you see the new Shepard bevel up infill plane? So hopefully more bevel up planes will be on their way.

Re: Son of Stan - a review *LINK*

#3

Re: Son of Stan - a review

Roger Nixon

>Really great work, Derek. Thanks!

Re: Son of Stan - a review *LINK*

#4

Excellent review in every way

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>

Re: Son of Stan - a review *LINK*

#5

Heavier bevel up smoother...

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>I've put this same request to Rob several times. While the 62.5 will fit the bill sometimes, I would love to see a shortened version to represent a premium bevel up short smoother. Compared to the existing LA Smoother, a thicker blade, a tad wider,thicker castings, screw adjustable mouth and a mushroom front knob (and of course, none of those ugly circles on the side).Glad to see some other voices expressing the same.

Re: Son of Stan - a review *LINK*

#6

Re: Heavier bevel up smoother...

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>A 4-1/2 size smoother would be very interesting, indeed. It would really stamp the bevel-up design as a serious candidate in the smoother stakes. However it should be recognised that the current smoother (both LV and LN) are substantial in heft, particularly when compared to the average #4 or #604. I am away from my workshop and at work at present, but my perception is that the LV smoother weighs at least as much as my Stanley #4-1/2 (which includes a weighty Clifton blade and chip breaker). Personally, I vascillate between heavy and light planes (e.g. the Mujingfang and HNT Gordon ranges), finding pleasure in both. But on the shooting board I have certainly developed a preference for the extra heft of the #62-1/2 over the lighter #62.

I wonder what others prefer in terms of heft in planes?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: Son of Stan - a review *LINK*

#7

Your review is a KEEPER!!

fmutchler@adelphia.net

>

Re: Son of Stan - a review *LINK*

#8

Re: Steve Knight?

paul womack

>I wonder what others prefer in terms of heft in planes?

IIRC Steve Knight did some experiment on planes that were identical apart from weight. It involved lead-shot-loading :-)

I don't remember his conclusions (which will be personal to some extent, as usual)

Steve?

BugBear

Re: Son of Stan - a review *LINK*

#9

Re: handles

paul womack

>I was particularly interested in the difference between your prejudices (widely shared...) aboput the LV handles, and your (carefully reported and distinguished) experience of using them,

Any comments on the (also most unusual) mushroom front knob?

Thanks (hey Alf! ya' gettin' this?)

BugBear

Re: Son of Stan - a review *LINK*

#10

Wood identity in your report?

CONGER - The Irish diaspora in Munich

>Thanks Derek for the cool report.

I am puzzled by the naming you used for the wood samples.

Now I am not an expert in Aussie woods, but I suspect that you have switched the names for the 'Jarrah' and 'Tasmanian oak' (on my printout -- page 9).

I have recently been using both of these woods, and I recognise the upper picture as being 'Tasmanian oak' (Nothofagus Cunninghamii -- alias Tasmanian Myrtle) and the lower picture as being 'Jarrah'.

Both of these were excellent woods to work with... and the Nothofagus C. offered spectacular grain (swirling) patterns... and I need another cubic meter of it!

Thanks again... -g-

PS...... the 'camphorwood' you used... was also Aussie origin? I have used camphorwood only from Thailand / Burma / Malasyia.

Re: Son of Stan - a review *LINK*

#11

Re: handles

Alice Frampton, UK

>Derek, great job. I can appreciate how much work you must have put into it.

BB, yeah, I'm getting it.

I still don't find the rear handle comfortable, but prolonged exposure to the jack has made it more bearable. But then fakirs can apparently get used to sleeping on nails... ;~) I've also been using it on fairly thick workpieces, so effectively raising the bench height, which was pretty much what I'd guessed was one of the main issues I had. I'm working on a minor update to my review at the moment to cover this evolution of opinion (sounds better than "change of mind"!).

Cheers, Alf

Re: Son of Stan - a review *LINK*

#12

Re: Wood identity in your report?

Mark Harrison -- in Sydney, Australia

>I'm not Derek but I believe that the photos are correctly captioned. The Jarrah scans do look a little on the light in color side though.

"Tasmanian Oak" doesn't really exist. What is sold as Tasmanian Oak is either Eucalyptus Regnans, E. Obliqua or E. Delegatensis. To make things more confusing, one of these is also marketed as Victorian Ash. E. Regnans IIRC.

All three are denser (and presumably harder) than North American Hard Maple and this is nowhere near the hardest timber that we have.

Camphor Laurel was commonly grown as an ornamental tree in Australia. It has a deserved reputation for destroying building foundations (I've seen this myself) and surrounding roads. I don't even think a permit is required to remove these trees in most local government localities. However, these seems to be a neverending supply of these ornamental trees and the timber is not that hard to come by.

Re: Son of Stan - a review *LINK*

#13

Weight

Robin Frierson

>Dereck, the current offerings of LA smoothers weigh in at 3 1/2 and 3 3/4lbs. I am thinking of something like a LN 4 1/2, like 5 1/2lbs. If we keep bugging Rob about it, he's bound to cave it eventually. Poor guy, he cant keep the planes coming fast enough for us plane junkies.

Re: Son of Stan - a review *LINK*

#14

Re: handles

Robin Frierson

>Yeah, at first I didnt like the tote too. But over time its grown on me. I dont like my hands to contact metal, so I just grab it higher up and its seems to work.

I wish there was a way I could put a clifton tote on the plane. To me Clifton got it right with their totes, the best out there.

I think Rob should offer a block of wood with the holes already drilled, and let all us tote complainers fashion our own. I imagine we would find that making a comfortable tote is not easy.

Re: Son of Stan - a review *LINK*

#15

Re: handle ergonomic considerations

William R. Duffield on the Cohansey

>Look at, and feel the palm of your hand. Note that it is padded around the perimeter, but with very little protection in the middle of the palm. When you shape your own tote, make sure when you are using it that most of the pressure is on the padding, and NOT on the center of the palm. Repeated stress injuries to the center of the palm can lead to carpel tunnel syndrome.

Another important note: when using paring chisels and carving gouges, the same considerations apply. (I don't really think I need to mention files, especially those used with bare tangs.) Always avoid the urge to strike the butt of the chisel or gouge with the palm of your hand, instead of picking up and using a mallet.

Re: Son of Stan - a review *LINK*

#16

Re: Wood identity in your report?

William R. Duffield on the Cohansey

>cubic meter

You guys across the pond sure do measure your wood in strange ways :^) For us Yankees, that would be about 424 board feet.

Re: Son of Stan - a review *LINK*

#17

Re: handles

Rob Lee

>Hi Robin -

We are doing a bit of tweaking of the handle shape right now - but if you read William's post below - he's got it absolutely correct - avoiding center of the palm contact is important....the only thing that should fit like a glove is, well...gloves. Handles that fit too closely can actually restrict blood flow, accelerate fatigue, and also put pressure on tendons and nerves.

What we are doing is adding a toe to limit lower hand position, which reduces contact with the sidewalls, and a bit of shaping near the top. Any changes we make now will be backwards compatible, and will (for the most part) involve adding material (i.e. - if you don't like the toe - you can easily remove it).

We will most likely produce a handle blank (more like a rough handle shape) to encourage people to modify their tools. It's why we have a handle interfac kit for the shaves, and wood knobs/handles wherever we can...

Cheers -

Rob

Re: Son of Stan - a review *LINK*

#18

Re: handles

Rob Lee

>..oops - William's post I refer to is actually above, not below...

Cheers -

Rob

Re: Son of Stan - a review *LINK*

#19

Re: Wood identity in your report?

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>Hi Conger

The woods are marked correctly, as Mark (below) has pointed out. And just to amplify a point he made, I find quite a range in density among samples of Jarrah. But generally even the less dense examples are tough and require that you pay careful attention when planing. Camphor has an interesting history in that it was introduced, then took over, and is now considered a danger. So-much-so that it is being cut down at every occasion. I think it is a spectacular wood, albeit quite difficult to plane without tear out as the grain frequently reverses and swirls. My workshop has never smelled fresher since I have been playing with it. The smell is only present with freshly cut timber, though. I recall hearing good things about it being able to discourage rust, so would be useful for tool drawers. Tasmanian Oak, or "Tassie Oak" as it is referred to locally, is not a true Oak but really a Eucalypt. As the name suggests, it is used as a substitute for English or American Oak. Both the Jarrah and Tassie Oak used here were probably medium hard examples. Hoop Pine was the softwood mainstay of the furniture industry in the early part of last century onward. It is an incredibly easy timber to face plane, since it is quite predictable, and it will leave a warm, silky look. But planing its end grain is another story, which is why I included it here. A real test of end grain planing.

Regard from Perth

Derek

Re: Son of Stan - a review *LINK*

#20

Re: Wood identity in your report?

Joe Rogers, Northern Virginia

>Nice round number...424 board feet. If he wants it he should get it!:-)JR

Re: Son of Stan - a review *LINK*

#21

Re: Steve Knight?

steve knight

>I found the higher the angle of the bedded blade the more the weight makes a difference. a 5# coffin with a 60 degree bedding works more like a 50 in effort but it seems to cut cleaner. add a japanese iron and it blows away my infills. it takes far less effort to use too. I am not sure but I don't seem to notice it as much at 45 degrees.

Re: Son of Stan - a review *LINK*

#22

Units!

CONGER - The Irish diaspora in Munich

>Well.... with my American Pentium, I get 423.78 BF...

Now, In Bavaria (Munich is the state capital), you would have to order wood by the 'Ster', or even the 'Klafter', or even the Preussian 'Klafter' (a more accurate 'Klafter').

We buy tomatoes in 'Pfund' (pound? - 453grammes or 500grammes??), and our beer by the 'Mass' (Mass means 'unit', as in measurement unit)... what is that? Most people seem to think it is 1 liter... at Octoberfest, a 'Mass' is a large glass with beer in it... and 'must' drink-up and shut-up even if the glass is not full!

Har... metric? - not in your wildest dreams... -g-

Re: Son of Stan - a review *LINK*

#23

Re: handle ergonomic considerations

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>There is so much to say about handles, as the bench plane handle performs more than one task (general handling and lifting the plane from the wood, guiding the orientation of the plane, and serving as the means to translate the driving force of the body into propulsion of the plane are just some prominent examples).

General handling and lifting require handles that allow for a good grip in opposition to gravity. The front mushroom tote of the new LA Jack serves this function well, while many wooden plane and toteless infill gripping surfaces are rather lacking in this area (fortunately most wooden planes are relatively light, but not all). Extended planing is going to involve a lot of lifting of the plane from the wood, so to avoid fatigue, an efficient lifting (handle) system is important.

The ease with which guiding the orientation of the plane is achieved is greatly due to handle configuration. Guiding the plane means establishing the direction of the motion and the skew (or lack of) the plane, maintaining orthogonality when jointing an edge or achieving a constant angle for champhering, etc. This may involve (say when skewing the plane, or working from the side of the workpiece) approaching the plane at some angle from the side. To do this comfortably, one must be able to grasp the handles from more than one postion, all the while being able to stay clear of other portions of the plane (say the side wings of a Bedrock style) while clasping the handles. It often means the grip on the handle must allow for some encompassing of the handle by the hand, rather than an open grip that is largely maintained by driving pressure.

Perhaps the most obvious, but often neglected aspect of handles is that they must allow for a physiologically efficient means to translate body forces into propulsion of the plane. This usually means allowing a comfortable grip of the handle while the wrist, hand are in line, which directs the forces in line with the bones and their jointing surfaces, and where this is not possible, emphasizes the forces arising from the most functional use of the larger muscle groups. These forces primarily need to be directed towards forward motion, but may also need to be directed towards the wood surface as well.

Achieving optimum direction of force is no mean feat, as bench and body heights differ, as does body mass and muscle strength. A person using a high bench, but also being tall and with great upper body strength is going to interact with a plane differently than a person with a high bench who is shorter, has less upper body strength, and less upper body mass.

Low bench heights were used in the past when much of planing was performed by shorter (though often more muscular)men for the purpose of extensive dimensioning as well as smoothing and jointing. Low bench heights are still desirable for dimensioning tasks, and/or for those with less upper body strength and mass, as it allow one to get more of the upper body mass up over the plane, and allows the use of that mass (as well as muscle forces)to help drive the plane.

However, a high bench has some advantages, not the least is better visibility and fine motor control when edgejointing. Taller persons with more upper body strength are going to be more comfortable (as a general rule) with a taller bench.

These are just oversimplified examples (some of you have read my long version of handle and planing force analysis), but I think they begin to demonstrate why any single handle design is hard pressed to achieve any universality of application. A more angled tote, such as is found on L-N planes and others of the Stanley tradition, tends to work better ergonomically for those using a low bench for tasks the require more force than finesse (again, dimensioning, so for Jacks and the like), while a straighter tote tends to be more desireable for use with a taller bench where the task require good visibility and control (say a #7 edge jointer). So one of the things I try to encourage is not using exactly the same handle style for all plane sizes. And while this will be difficult to achieve for many, it is actually desirable to have benches of more than one height, and the planes that match.

Again, there is so much more to say, but I hope this give one some idea of why I don't think there is any one perfect handle style, even for the same person. It hopefully also gives some idea why there will be disparity of opinion between hand tool users on what is the optimal handle shape and angle.

Re: Son of Stan - a review *LINK*

#24

Re: Superb!

paul womack

>Life's never black and white, and so many design decision "depend".

Your article is a welcome analysis of this w.r.t plane handles.

BugBear

👍 This page answered my questions

Your vote helps other woodworkers quickly find the answers and techniques that actually work in the shop.