WoodCentral Forums

Est. 1998 — 27 years of woodworking knowledge

Frame and Panel Size

Posts

Frame and Panel Size

#1

Frame and Panel Size

John, NY

>This is a question on when to frame and panel and when not to frame and panel.

In the latest edition of Woodworking they have a design for a nice little end table with a drawer in it. The sides of that table are solid and about 6" deep. I recently built a small nightstand of similar design but a little heavier and used a frame and panel construction for the sides which were about 8" deep.

Since the sides of the table in the magazine were mortised in place how wide can you realistically go [I realize it will vary a little from wood to wood, so, say with cherry] before you run a high risk of the joint failing and would have to go to frame and panel construction??

Thanks

John

Re: Frame and Panel Size

#2

very good question

Steve Jenkins, Dallas TX.

>unfortunately I don't know the answer. I do know that a lot of entry doors have a 10" bottom rail and that is a crossgrain joint for sure. Steve

Re: Frame and Panel Size

#3

Re: Frame and Panel Size

Ed Mulligan, Cape Cod

>John -

Wide rails exist in doors as Steve has noted, also bed headboards, the sides of sideboards etc. The traditional way to join wide rails is to use multiple tenons. I can't explain why multiple tenons work; sometimes the rail splits anyway, but usually not.

For the 8" sides of a small table I'd haunch the upper tenon about 3/4" or so, and use 2 3" tenons with a 1" +/- separation between them.

Ed

Re: Frame and Panel Size

#4

Re: Frame and Panel Size

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>That is a good question. And I can offer my two cents, but first we should clarify a few things:

The problem is not joint failure, but the cracking of that wide side piece. Even if that happens, the furniture will live on for centuries. There are many, many examples of this in the public domain. The cracks usually don�t continue across the entire length.

We see these joints often. Chippendale/Queen Anne style furniture often has side pieces easily in excessive of 12�. I copied a semi-boarded William and Mary chest which fastened a 16� board cross grain.

Modern woodworkers armed with a little information have railed against these joints. They point to them (in all hubris) to elucidate the mistakes of period workmen. There have been discussions by notables about whether they should reproduce such �mistakes�.

The reality is that a single crack doesn�t make a piece of furniture a failure. We really have no idea what will happen to our glue, our joinery in 200 years. But most importantly, 18th century workmen understood the problem and took steps to prevent it:

1) They chose quartersawn stock (or rift heart sawn stock) for such boards.

2) They protected end grain

3) I suspect (though there�s no way of knowing) that they also preloaded their joints (like a spring joint). Forcing slightly tapered tenons into mortises is one way they could have done it.

We should view surviving pieces as examples of the superiority of their particular joinery and not view the relatively few cracks caused by cross grain joinery as �mistakes�. I�m dedicated to these older styles esthetically, but for those of you who prefer modern styles, I think you should at least familairize yourselves with what was done, and how it was accomplished. That way you have a starting place.

Adam

Re: Frame and Panel Size

#5

Re: Frame and Panel Size

Sam Simpson

>Hi Y'all,

It would seem to me that the answer is one of frailty in the post. There would certainly be times when an 8" board would be too wide for a small table side. This would depend on the size of the leg. The answer is to be found in the mortise. The idea of multiple tenons is not an advantage for the tenon, it is an advantage for the mortise. So, when you have a style, post or leg that has a cross-section that would be compromised by too much mortising, it would be prudent to scale back the joinery and use a frame and panel construction. No matter how wide the rail.

Regards Sam Simpson.

Re: Frame and Panel Size

#6

Same question different size

Steve Jenkins, Dallas TX.

>I am getting ready to start a project that has essentially the same joint. The panels will be 24" wide and and fastened top and bottom flush with the edge of 7" wide boards. Everything is qtr. sawn white oak. I was thinking using a haunched tenon with a real snug fit and gluing just the center 4-5". What do you think? Steve

Re: Frame and Panel Size

#7

Re: Same question different size

Ed Mulligan, Cape Cod

>Steve -

Are you describing a 24" wide 'breadboard' with 7" wide cleats or caps? I'm not sure I'm envisioning it correctly.

If it's a 'breadboard' construction, can you use plywood for the 24" wide piece? End of problem but you probably can't or else you wouldn't have posed the problem.

Glue in the center only will allow the 24" panel to expand and contract with moisture changes. For a more secure join, I've sprung the joint and pinned it. Outside pins work in elongated holes in the tenons. Pins can be installed so they only show on one side.

If the 24" dimension must not float and the panel has to be wood, the multiple M&Ts I mentioned in an earlier post might work. I've never tried it, I hasten to add. With multiple M&Ts, the entire joint is glued. The goal is to immobilize the panel ends. The multiple mortises, in theory, make the panel act like several narrower boards by limiting cross-grain movement. Or, it might crack.

Ed

Re: Frame and Panel Size

#8

Re: Same question different size

Steve Jenkins, Dallas TX.

>Ed, I'll try to explain a bit better. First I wanted to use veneer but this particual person insists on solid wood which like this can present challenges.

The 24" wide panel is vertical. It's the back of a couch.There will be several of them.At the top and bottom are attached 7"wide boards with the faces horizontal like a ledge at the top and bottom back of the couch.

I think I will go with the multiple mortises and tenons unless I get some kind of brainstorm. Thanks, Steve

Re: Frame and Panel Size

#9

Re: Same question different size

Frank Mutchler in Colorado Springs

>Steve, how much expansion do you anticipate from the 24" panels? Maybe frame & panel construction with the 7" wide top & bottom boards serving as the top & bottom rails? I had to make a 7' blanket chest for a client and my top & bottom rails (front & back) were made like that...worked great.

Re: Frame and Panel Size

#10

Re: Same question different size

Ed Mulligan, Cape Cod

>Thanks for the additional info.

I've had a few situations where customers wanted something that was not in their best interest. In those cases I've explained the possible consequences and stated that I could not guarantee the work. So far,it's worked (i.e. they've accepted my workarounds).

Here's another idea. It's fussy to make but might fill the bill.


img

Re: Frame and Panel Size

#11

Just glue the center

Don Thompson - Cutler Ridge, Florida

>Steve,

I discussed this fort of problem with a furniture maker who specializes in Craftsman-style furniture. He makes a coffee table that has a ~24-inch shelf attached to the spreaders on the two ends with long tenons. He just glues the center of the tenon, leaving the outer end free to move with the cross-grain expansion and contraction of the shelf. Depending upon the time of year, and your locale, you will want to leave a little room for the expansion of the tenon by making the tenon a little narrower than the mortise.

I am not sure about this, but he may have pinned the center of the m/t joint.

Disclaimer: I am not an expert, but his method seems to fit with what I have read and experienced. We bought a piece of furniture from him (an L.&J.G. Stickley clipped-corner taboret repro), and it is very soundly made.

Re: Frame and Panel Size

#12

Re: Just glue the center

Steve Jenkins, Dallas TX.

>Don, that's pretty much what I've decided to do. I'm going to make the tenon a real snug fit so nothing can rattle and allow expansion room on both ends of the mortise. It's going to be a bit before I start on it but I'll try to take some progress pics. It's going to be an interesting piece.

Thanks, Steve

👍 This page answered my questions

Your vote helps other woodworkers quickly find the answers and techniques that actually work in the shop.