Japanese bench chisel recommendation ,please..

Tool box Design

joel

>Just a point of practicallity. You will drive yourself crazy trying to figure out all the tools you will buy in the next 20 years.

don't sweat the details. Make the chest as big as you can and never glue in any of the fittings (use screws). This way as you upgrade your tools you can easily change the chest. The lid of my toolbox where I keep my saws is in a constant state of flux. I basically use only 4 saws the which 4 saws seems to be changing yet again. So the insterts the handles fit around get modified yet again, and the spacing of the saws gets changed too. THe bottom where the planes are hansn't changed much in years. (2 smooth planes, a 5,6,7, scrub, winding sticks and the beam of a panel gauge) but until that settled down the wood rests for the planes were always being moved around.

Oh Boy... *LINK*

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>I have Japanese dovetail, mortice chisels. I use western style bench chisel for now. If I was to get a set of japanese chisels I'd get blue steel. I can't understand why you want white steel, but no big deal. I'd be torn between these:

http://www.hidatool.com/woodpage/chisel/mfinish.html

Blue steel:

http://www.japanwoodworker.com/dept.asp?dept_id=11564

White steel (if you must):

http://www.japanwoodworker.com/dept.asp?dept_id=11572

oh decisions...any of these:

http://www.japanesetools.com/tools/chisels/benchchisels.php

or...

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=MS-JACH5302.XX&Category_Code=TMT\

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=MS-JACH512.XX&Category_Code=TBBCND

Lot's of good choices depending how deep your pockets are;)

http://www.japanwoodworker.com/dept.asp?dept_id=11567


Deep pocket chisels...

Re: Oh Boy...

david coburn

>Thanks Scott.

You obviously know something about Japanese chisels so if you don't mind I have one other specific question for you... Currently I sharpen my chisels with the scary sharp method using a rolling honing guide to hold the chisel at the appropriate angle. I read somewhere that the japanese chisels do not fit well (can't be held) in the standard honing guides.. Do you know if this is true? I would have a difficult time holding the angle of the chisel consistently without some type of fixture. How do you sharpen your chisels?

Lastly, Although all the chisels that you sent are beautiful I think most of them are a little out of my price range, except the blue and white steels from Matsumura on Japan Woodworker. Those were/are the ones that I am closely looking at.

Oh yea, any comments on a Bow-Saw or some type of japanese saw as to ripping and crosscutting?

thx,

david

Re: Oh Boy... *LINK*

Tim of San Leandro

>I've got Iyoroi mortise chisels from Joel at toolsforwoodworking.com. I recommend them highly....recently posted a bit about them on another forum. Aesthetically, they aren't very good (see the link) but usage wise, they are excellent.

I've heard the bargain basement Grizzly japanese chisels are surprisingly good. $120 for a set of 10!

I've got some Matsumura bench chisels I really like. I also have the Hirsch chisels (set from Lee Valley) that are very good and well worth the money.

I have heard that the type of steel used in japanese chisels isn't as important as the metalsmith's ability to forge. But then you are starting to talk about chisels in the $50/chisel and up range.

Tim


Mortise chisel discussion

Re: Oh Boy...

Sean Evoy

>David,

I've experimented with pull saws, but I guess that I grew up sawing on the push stroke and for me, it's just more natural (plus a lot of the lower-end Japanses saws cannot be sharpened, and I got interested in hand tools because I was tired of disposable living). That said, I am convinced that keeping the blade in tension does make it easier to control the cut, so I compromised and got a x-cut and rip bowsaw. I have had good success with the x-cut saw, but much less with the rip.

So far, the shape of the x-cut saw has not interfered with my work. I suppose that somewhere there is a board that is too wide to cut with this saw, but I can't afford it anyway :-) The blade is narrower too, so I figure I'm buring fewer calories to acheive the same results.

By the same token, the rip bowsaw I have is annoying because I almost always have to angle the handle to finish the cut and I find it hard to control when I do. Sure, someone trained to use that style of saw since they were in short pants probably wouldn't have any trouble, but that isn't me. I am going to keep practicing, but there are moments when I think about throwing it in the fire and buying a decent D8.

To tell you the truth... *LINK*

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>Most are out of my price range too. I use honing guides on all my western chisels and plane blades. I usually use SS with these and finish with green honing compound. I freehand my Japanese mortice chisles because of the nice long bevel. I use the guide pictured for my dovetail chisels. All my Japanese chisels are sharpened on waterstones (I have Kings). I strop these too. Please remember when sharpening these you need to do the backs as well as the fronts to keep from having to "tap out" the chisel a little more effort but worth it. BTH Don't use this guide with scary sharp it tears up the wheeles DAMHIKT.

Last but not least I'm playing with some cheap Japanese saws now so I have no comment on them except to say I prefer western saw still because the teeth don't bend or break.




Honing guide

Since you asked...

Dave Wright, Paris Mountain SC

>I recommend that you start with just one or two Japanese chisels. Don't commit to a full set. Some folks love 'em; some hate 'em. After reading the FWW chisel review some years ago I bought a couple. One blue steel and one white, both from the same medium priced sets that FWW recommended. I used them for a while, both in projects and in comparison to Western chisels. Here are my observations:

-- I'm not convinced that they take as keen an edge as Western chisels, though that is at least partly my fault for not apprenticing with Japanese master carpenters for several years to learn how to properly sharpen them.

-- My sharpening routine is all about predictable results. I use honing guides and sharpening media that are guaranteed to be flat (diamonds, ceramics, & scary sharp). Japanese chisel length and shape really doesn't work in my guides. The chisels are too brittle to be honed on my diamond stones.

-- The chisels did indeed seem to last a little longer when chopping dovetails than my Western chisels, but they also chipped surprisingly easily. I lost a chunk brushing lightly against the vise corner when setting one chisel down. Later on I lost a corner when the chisel tapped against a glass surface (my scary sharp base). Time saved by longer lasting edges was given back many times over grinding out chips.

I love the feel of these chisels, but Western chisels work better for me. I have a large collection of different brands. Ashley Isles, Stanley (old and new), Two Cherries, Sandvik, Marples, Sorby, and Henry Taylor. I may have forgotten a couple. No complete sets though. They all work fine. I wouldn't recommend the Sorby or Henry Taylor; they take a very keen edge but dull quickly. My favorites are the Two Cherries and an old Stanley 750. The rest fall somewhere in the middle - perfectly OK.

I'd go with a set of the Two Cherries or Hirsch. Got deeper pockets? Go with a set of the new Lie-Nielsen knockoffs of the old Stanley 750. I've heard great things about them, but haven't laid hands on any. The 750 is a great design. Light and maneuverable like Japanese chisels, but with Western chisel sharpenability and durability. The Lie-Nielsen version is the only A2 chisel available today; quite possibly tougher than Japanese chisels.

Enjoy the toolbox project!

Dave

Ashley IIes vs. Two Cherries/Hirsch

david coburn

>Dave,

Thanks so much... I had already decided to do something at least similar to what you said in as much as only getting one or two of the Japanese chisels to try them out. Your point about sharpening them is one of my big concerns.. I don't think they will work in my current honing guide, they're gonna be too short.

I'm leaning heavily toward buying a single 1/2" Matsumura White Steel along with the Hirsch set.

I wish that that FWW chisel review (1999) had included the Ashley IIes but I don't think they were around at that time. They look very interesting to me.

Of the three Two Cherries, Hirsch, or Ashley IIes do you have any particular contrasting comments? I understand that the Two Cherries and Hirsch are actually the same chisel so I guess I'm really asking how do the Ashley IIes stack up against them.

Anyway, I really appreciate this feedback.

thanks,

david

Re: Ashley IIes vs. Two Cherries/Hirsch *LINK*

Dave Wright, Paris Mountain SC

>David,

My comments on various chisels can be found in the article I wrote back in the BP era. Thanks for Woodcentral for preserving the BP articles.

I work a little differently now than I did when writing the review. Chisel bevels are rough ground with a Prairie Wet Grinder. I use Scary Sharp for initial prep but only diamond/ceramic for routine sharpening. I use 25 degree primary & 30 degree secondary bevels for most of my chisels and plane blades - not having noticed any advantage to angles individually tuned to each tool. Note that steepening the angles to 30/35 didn't improve my Japanese chisel results.

I never ended up buying an entire set of chisels. For a while I was waiting to see how the LNs came out. Later on I figured that I had a cool set of mismatched chisels that were working fine. No need to get more.

I prefer the Ashley Isles design from an aesthetic standpoint. I found the Two Cherries to handle better (lighter and less tiring to use), have better quality control, and take less time for initial prep. I'm splitting hairs though. Both are fine. I couldn't discern any difference in sharpenability or edge toughness between the two chisels. The Two Cherries comes with a top hoop, which may allow impact by harder mallets then the AI.

You wouldn't go wrong with either.

Regards,

Dave


Chisel Review (BP Article Archive)

Re: Ashley IIes vs. Two Cherries/Hirsch

david coburn

>Dave,

Thanks bunches... That was a very good review.

david