Sweet *LINK*

Re: Sweet

Ernie Miller Topeka

>You know who that is don't you?

Not a clue

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>

I can't...

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>see spending that kinda cash on a No.1. Sure it's old and whatever. If I'm ever gonna drop a chunk of change like that it would be on a nice Norris jointer. Not a No. 1

Heck go get a LN1 and buy wood...

Whazzat?

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>Hi Scott,

I don't think that kinda cash would be good for anything more than the opening bid on a Norris or Spiers jointer in good condition. You could expect to pay 2,600++ for a nice one.

Regarding old planes, I first liked type 11's, then I got my hands on a nice type 9 and that became my favorite. There are many who would say type 2 or 4 is the best that Stanley ever made. I believe his Leachness is preferential to type 2's but I have not discussed this directly with him, only those who know him.

So I guess what I'm saying is that if you can find early types in this good condition, they are worth what you will need to pay to aquire them. You might be shocked at how right Stanley got it right at the beginning. While these planes are rare, what is rarer still is finding one in such good condition. This is why I think that the #1 in the auction is probably worth quite a bit more than what was paid

Regards

Jonathan

Re: Sweet

Mark Meier (Ann Arbor, MI)

>I see from his previous auctions he found this interesting little guy as well:

Keen Kutter Rabbet Block Plane

Mark

Re: Sweet

Steve Kubien

>You should see some of the goodies "mr peabody" has up for auction. I know it is not normally our way to point out ongoing auctions but there are nice pieces there to enhance somebody's arsenal.

If this is way outta line, please forgive and delete this message from the list.

Steve Kubien

Ajax, Ontario

Re: Fad tools

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>I kind of wonder how long it will be before the #1 is no longer in favor and the #4 is the new hot thing. Looking at the pics of that #1, I wonder how much cleaning was done on it, as there appears to be rust in the stamping of the iron but none on the iron, and the tote is a hugely different color from the knob. I guess I could've taken my credit card and bought the thing, but personally I really don't understand why I want one, and I'm fairly certain that if I was to buy one now my grandchildren probably wouldn't be able to get the money back out of it.

Re: Sweet

Ross Canant - NE Texas

>Mr. Peabody = Patrick Leach

Re: Fad tools

Todd Hughes

>My old friend Mr. R told me that even back in the late 1960s a nice no. 1 could set you back $200 from tool sellers. About 10 years ago the price was at $450-$700 , 5 years ago was at $900 and now it seems to be around $1200 Really don't look like it will be going down anytime soon and don't think the common no.4 will ever overtake it.[!] As collectables go the little no. 1 has about it all. Rare but not unobtainable.I think sometimes with tools that are very rare the prices are held down because no one thinks about them while the no. 1 is common enough that many people want one but rare enough so that they are hard to find[at least in the wild] Also lots of guys are out to get a complete set of Stanley bench planes, no. 1-8 and the no. 1 of course is the crown jewel.Also its a plane that has alot of info on it out there, pretty easy to tell if it is "right" and when it was made. Last it is pretty high on the small and cute scale and is probably the "classic" collectable plane. I am quite sure that within the next 10 years no.1 will be commonly sold for $2,000

Mr. R told me about the time back in the early 1960's when he was at a country auction out in Ohio and they held up a British infill plane and a No.1 with them being sold "Buyers Choice". He got them both for $5.00 ea.Back up bidder told him while in line to pay that he might of got an ok deal on the British plane but he paid way to much for the Stanley.Also told me that for weeks afterward people would point at him and whisper about the crazy guy that would pay that much money for a plane .....Todd

Re: I can't...

Todd Hughes

>Something tells me the high bidder didn't buy this no. 1 to use.With tools like this they are no longer just tools to work but are tools to collect so you can't compare them to other wood working user tools......Sort of like saying "I just don't understand why sombody would pay $25,000 for a fine Purdy Shotgun / 1939 Ford when they could buy a Mossburg shotgun/ Honda......Todd

Thanks for that.

Steve Kubien

>

Re: Fad tools

Greg Sloop

>Here's the thing. If you like it because it's pretty and you never care if you get a dime out of it - then great. If you think it's an "investment" I think you're on crack. (Sorry if that sounds harsh...)

This is built on the same ideals as stock market crashes.

I buy it because someone else is bound to pay more for it than I did - not because it has some basic value that makes it worth that amount.

That's the basic theory behind a ponzi scheme too.

'There's always a bigger sucker out there than me.'

So, if one thinks these items are worth that, than fine. But they're putting stock in a fools pile of blocks. All it takes is for the sheep to start running the other way and that $10,000 ultra rare ivory tusk and flint iron plane drops like a rock to its real basic value as a tool - and that probably isn't what it's going for as a collectable. And one never knows when that bubble is going to burst.

Perhaps it's this wry skepticism that keeps me from making a "killing" off collecting things and I'm the dumb one. I dunno.

But it's basic for me. Does it have that value for it's tool use, or do I simply have an odd attachment to it for hand-plane-erotica - or whatever the item might be. If it's the latter, then don't worry about the real value, just what you can afford. But, IMHO, don't consider it an investment - it's a mighty risky one.

Anyway...

Cheers,

Greg

Re: Fad tools

John Truxell-Svenson (jvs)

>If you look at those numbers against inflation/CPI data from 1970 to present and guesstimates out to 2014, they add up to single digit total real gains; much less than one percent a year. Buy 'em if you like 'em (which is reason enough), or if you find one in a box of beanie babies at a yard sale, but don't pretend that they are investments at anything close to auction prices.




/jvs

Re: Rare tools *LINK*

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>Hi Greg,

Unfortunately I don't think that there are collectors on this list to give their side of the equation. What I think is part of the missing link is in the terminology. These are not fad tools, they are rare tools, rare being defined by how many were made and are in circulation.

Tool collectors add something to the mix that the rest of us don't. Collectors and their organizations find, preserve, catalog and assemble the history on rare tools. If it weren't for collectors, we probably wouldn't have as many credible resources available to us for our research.

I don't know if you've ever been to Sandy's brace page, Ralph Brendler's gage page, Randy's Roeder's Millers Falls page, The Disstonian Institute site, Pete Taran's saw site, Patrick Leach's Blood & Gore, etc.... Not to mention the DAT, USTPO, and the many books available.

These tools are not users and you wouldn't expext to go up against a collector when bidding on user grade stuff. I also can't speak to the value in dollars as I think that collector's have a different motivation and are more interested in obtaining the tool than any perceived value of it. Of course the cycle will continue when these collectors sell off or pass on and these tools are released back into the wild.

While it can be fun to bash collector's, try to remember the wealth of tool knowlege these guys bring to our little hobby. Now back to our regularly scheduled program....


MWTCA

Re: Rare tools

joel

>I am a collector and a user. What I find funny is that "user" tools usually means something in not great shape that can be fixed up and used. Unlike "collector" tools which are pristine (or users cleaned up to look pristine).

What I have never understood is why users want "users" except of course for the price.

"users" is sort of a dealer term for anything they can't sell at a premo price. Users like tools in good shape too and if a collector tool is in their budget they buy and use them.

(which is usually a good thing).

The advantage of being a collector too is that you don't agonize of which Stanley plane is the most useful model. You get them all and figure it out later.

The rarest tools are usually blind alleys of design which weren't practical (Stanley 444), didn't work as well as other models (Norris A13), or too expensive for what they did well (norris A17). You occasionally see models of tools that are rare yet useful but the company went of business for a dumb reason but that's really rare and I can't think of any examples off the top of my head.

Some rare tools of course like the Stanley 444 dovetail plane are rare for the above reasons and truly unnecessary, but the advantage of being a collector is that you don't try to justify it you collect the tool and then have a ball once in a blue moon when you actually try it out.

Excellent point Jon!

Bob Hackett

>Is it still OK to bash tool merchants(aka "mustache twirlers"),I wonder?;^)

Mainely,Bob

Re: Fad tools

joel

>I don't entirely disagree without but I don't entirely agree.

In 50 years there will be a lot fewer tool collectors and the only way to put together a collection of top quality 20th century and earlier tools will be through the sale of older collections.

What will happen is the same thing that happens to all collectible areas. The number of collectors drops - because most people cannot afford the cost of a collection. and the primo collectibles - of which there are still a lot fewer than collectors - goes up. On the other hand medieocre items - which will have a market amongst users who still want the old tools (but a smaller market than now) stays stagnet or goes down.

This is much like art collection or anything else. A Renoir has appreicated in value many times over since it was painted. A nice painting by an unknown painter from the same time period however would have lost money in terms of pure investment.

Re: Rare tools

Greg Sloop

>I'm not bashing collectors.

I collect some things myself. Not tools, and not at these prices. (I have a compaq luggable with the green 6" crt - still boots Cpq DOS 3.0 on a 10MB HDD IIRC) But I do it more for novelty or nostalgia than anything else.

The point I was trying to make is that doing this stuff for anything other than love is IMHO dumb. It may be an investment and there's probably a host of people who will make a killing doing so, but most will not. Further, I think the risk is high.

But each to their own. It *was* an opinion post after all.

Cheers,

Greg

Re: Rare tools

joel

>100% agree! The best collections, the most valuable ones, the ones that leave people mouth opened are aways assembled with love.

The best collection of American post war art (now in the National Gallery) was assembled by a post office worker and a school teacher. They had a great eye, they bought what they could afford, and 50 years later turns out they bet right.

Ken Hawley's tool collection at Sheffield University is another unbeliable achivement that was done for love.

The same is true of almost every great collection I can think of in any area. buy what you like, if you have a good eye the market will reward you (because other people will also like the same stuff), if you try to buy for investment reasons you will proably get burned (I know I have)

Re: Whazzat?

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>What I'm trying to say here is that IMHO $1,600.00 is a lot of $$ to drop on a plane, especially if it's just going to sit on a shelf and gather dust. I could get an arsenal of planes at that cost.

As far as types it really doesn�t matter to me as long as their before types 17 and have lateral adjusters. I have a wide variety of different typed Stanley�s and to be truthful I can�t tell a difference in types if they are well tuned. Case and point the type 17 4.5 I have is a POS I�ve feting it to death and the adjuster nut and stud have so much play its very hard to adjust.

The exception here is Bedrocks I can tell a difference in using these over a regular Stanley plane.

I kind of collect planes, sure I�d like a Stanley No.1, but until I find a $10.00 one I�m out of luck. That LN No. 1 sure is nice looking and at $195.00 you can�t go wrong, that is if you need one;). Scott a plane collector but, I use every one of them.

I see what your getting at

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>Todd. I understand it too. It's just a shame not to take it out play with it every now and again. Scott who likes Browning shotguns and Chevy's...

Re: Whazzat?

Steve Kubien

>Let's see, for $1600.00USD, I could build a new bench, from Steve Knight pick up a jointer, jack, plow plane, scrub, and a couple of different bed angled smoothers, a full set of Two Cherries bevelled edge chisels, a couple of mortise chisels, a full assortment of layout and marking tools and enough wood to keep me busy for a while.

Ok, I'm no collector (of anything). I buy what I need (or think I need) and I realize that everybody has their own motivation for being on this slippery slope of ours but that's still alot of scratch for what is essentially a toy-sized plane. My pocket book is happy that I am not that serious about my hobby. Now, if I found a $10 #1 at a garage sale (or even a $100), yeah I'd pick it up. I would quickly turn it around and turn it into some serious timber.

Hey, as long as we all enjoy our hobby......

Steve Kubien

Ajax, Ontario

You might be right, BUT...

Todd Hughes

>I don't think so. I think tools have gone up pretty steady in vaule in the last 40 years as i pointed out in the price rise I gave for no. 1 planes since the 1960's. Kind of a long steady climb for a "Fad" I think your definition of a "Ponzi scheme" as being "I buy it because someone else is bound to pay more for it then i did- not because it has some basic value that makes it worth it", well I find that pretty amusing as i think just about all tradtional investments could fall under that heading...uhmm just what is the "basic Value" for diamonds , gold, stock shares or even high priced realstate?... Guess you could invest in freeze dried foods and toilet paper and hope the world blows up, eh?

Antiques and many collectables have a very good track record of going up in vaule of course.I collect guns and I really think tools are where guns were back in the 1950-early 60's. Very under appreciated as to what they are with more emphisis on them as being "users" then "collectable".With some the prices have shot up amazingly.I had the chance to buy a papered Thompson 1928 SMG back in 1987 for $1,500. Had the money of course but my first wife told me it would be stupid to spend that money like that and if I wait I will get one cheaper.Today it is worth $30,000,[and shes long down the road!].

There are a few things needed for prices to go up for something whether Thompson Subs or stanley no.1 planes. First has to be an interest in them.I think interest in hand tools is growing by leaps and bounds.Many books on the subject, more people are doing wood working, computer groups talking about it etc. etc.While many get into it as users I think many then grow into collectors over time.These people often have a good bit of dispossiable income, if not instead of using expensive tools out in thier shop after work they would be working the second job down at the 7-11. Lastly they are not making any more Vintage Stanley no. 1 planes and there are more people that want them then there are no.1's out there.

While i certainly don't think hand tools are the best long term investments i do think they have the advantage over many other investments in that with some work, luck and taking time to learn what you are buying you can still find good deals far under vaule.Still a chance to find a collectable and vaulable tool under some old womans table at the flea market....Not much chance to do that with stock shares or beach front real estate....Todd

hmmmm?...

Todd Hughes

>I wonder how I could have better invested my .50 cents that I spent the other week for a Yankee No. 66 screw driver Bit that I sold for $116.00 a week later?.....Todd